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#21
08-30-2008, 04:05 AM
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More over HIs people in Mathew is speaking of Israel not the church. But we do know it has a application to the church as after Christ's death we become his people.
and as the serpent that was lifted up only those who believed and looked to the serpent after being bit were to receive healing from the bite. again it hinged on the choice of the man who beleived. God didn't choose some to look upon the serpent and others not too. the choice was in the hand of the person who was bitten. as it is in the hands of all men who have been bitten by the sting of sin to believe on Christ or not to. to look upon him or not to look, the choice is theirs. |
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#22
08-30-2008, 08:42 AM
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of course John 3:16 is not difinitve for Gods salvation for the elect only or anyone for that matter. it is proof he loves the whole world including sinner who will go to hell. it is his will none shoud perish
show me some scriptures please not just the teaching of men , The other verses shared in earlier post are clear that Jesus did die even for those who will not beleive as well as those who do. I agree . jim |
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#23
08-30-2008, 10:04 AM
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For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1Timothy 2:3-6).
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:14, 15). But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9). And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14). For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). |
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#24
08-30-2008, 11:21 AM
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"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived" (Numbers 21:8-9).
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John3:14-15). |
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#25
08-30-2008, 11:26 AM
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"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (John 17:20-21).
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#26
08-30-2008, 11:36 AM
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So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already [now], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18). He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36). And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst (John 6:35). And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40). Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47). He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:38). Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25, 26) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness (John 12:46). To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16). To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus (Romans 3:26). But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5). That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9). |
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#27
08-30-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
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#28
08-30-2008, 02:33 PM
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He didn't post a single objection. He posted Holy Scripture.
If the scriptures object to your philosophy, get a new one. It's this kind of mentality that shows the calvinists for how they really think. They can't accept scripture without running it through the TULIP filter. |
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#29
08-30-2008, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
[ The every man are the many sons ] To make the captain of their salvation [ their -- the salvation of the many sons ] perfect through sufferings . For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified [ so the every man are the many sons that are sanctified ] are all of one : for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [ the every man are the many sons who are the sanctified who are the brethren ] Saying , I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will i sing praise unto thee . And again , I will put my trust in him , And again , behold I and the children which God hath given me . [ thats the every man , its the children that God had given him to save , which links it up with John 17:2 where Jesus said , the Father gave him power over all flesh , that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him . Which links up with John 6:38 that says , For i came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me . And this is the Father's will which hath sent me , that of all [ All , this will identify the all men whom God will have to be saved ] which he hath given me i should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day . There it is , The every man of Heb. 2:9 has been identified in the chapter as being the many sons , the sanctified , the brethren , And the children which God had given to him , The context makes it very clear . Do you see how the every man is identified right in the context of the verse ? next i'll deal with 1 tim.2:3-6 Where its speaking of God , It says : Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men , the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time . So what about this , God will have all men to be saved ? Well , There is one way we can argue that and that is , if the all men in that verse is referring to every man without exception , And God will have all men to be saved , And God's will will be done , Then nobody will be lost . Well we know the Bible doesn't teach that , So right off the bat from that angle we have indication of a limitation in the passage . Most people would look at that and say God is willing for them to be saved , But he won't make them to be saved , They have to do something , They have to cooperate , And thats the way they try to wiggle around that , And that can be countered by simply pointing out the fact that man is unable and unwilling to respond to God by going to the verses that deal with mans total depravity , There is none that understandeth , There is none that seeketh after God -Rom.3:9-11 , Then 1 Cor. 2:14 The natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God : For they are foolishness unto him : neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . Or the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:18. Thats just giving a small sampling of the many verses we could go to show that man is neither able or willing to respond to God in a positive way , And so , If this idea of God willing all men to be saved is that God wants it but they have to do something , That is countered by the fact that they are unwilling to do . So anyway God will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth . First of all let's just deal with that all men , Just because you see that word all men , that doesn't nessasarily prove that thats all men without exception , It could be that but it is not nessesraily that , Because we have cases where the word all is used where there are obvious exceptions to the all under consideration. The first example of this is in Gen. 7:21 And this is talking about in the days of the flood and it says ; And all flesh died that moved upon the earth , both of fowl , and of cattle , and of beast , and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth , and every man: Now i want to ask you a question , Did all flesh without exception die in the flood ? No , There was a bunch of flesh that didn't die in that flood , There was alot of flesh on that ark , There was Noah and his wife , his 3 sons and there wives , And there was two and two of every animal , And seven of the clean beasts , They didn't die , So this is a case where the word all obviously is limited by the context , There are exceptions , And the same can be argued fom 1 Tim. 2:4-6 , The context also limits the all men , I'll show you where the context is limiting the all men. 1 Tim.2:4-6 , Who will have all men to be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth . For [ now thats going to be our clue as to who the all men are that God will have to be saved , For , See its connecting what is said in verse 5 with the previous verse ] For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men , The man Christ Jesus. So God will have all men to be saved for there is one mediator between God and man , the man Christ Jesus . Now find out for whom Jesus Christ is a mediator and you will have found the all men that God will have to be saved . Because he put forth Christ to be a mediator because he wanted to save these men, See the connection of thought ? Thats the whole reason we have a mediator , Is because God wills for all men to be saved . So find out for whom he is a mediator then you will have found out who the all men are , And thats very easy to answer by going over to Heb. 9:15 , And for this cause he [ That is Jesus Christ ] is the mediator of the new testament , that by means of death , for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament , They that are called might recieve the promise of eternal inheritance. Observe that he is a mediator for the benefit of those which are called , Now , Who are the called ? That's answered very clearly for us in Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate them he also called : So the called , are the predestinated , who are the elect . God would have all men to be saved , For that reason he sets forth Christ to be a mediator , Who is a mediator for those that are called , who are predestinated , who are the elect , so we've tracked down the all men . Now , Lets look at that from another angle , While we are looking at that all men , Sometimes these expressions of all , Refer to all in a specific context , Or a specific consideration as opposed to all without exception , Ceasar Augustus issued a decree that all the world should be taxed , And yet thats not talking about all mankind without exception , It was talking about the Roman world , The world that was under his jurisdiction , So there's a good usage of the word all , Thats all of what he's talking about in a given context as opposed to all without exception . Did you ever travel by train ? You here the conductor say all aboard , Does he mean everybody at the train station or everybody who's got a ticket ? We ourselves constantly use that term to refer to limited groups of people , Limited by the context of consideration . Another good verse would be in John 3:26 Where there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifing , And they came unto John , and he said unto him , Rabbi , he that was with thee beyond Jordan , to whom thou barest witness , behold , the same baptizeth , and all men come to him . Now , Was that all men without exception ? Did you come to Jesus at that time ? See , Its obviously the all men in that particular historical setting to which he is referring , Now the question might be asked , Why would God say all men ? Why didn't he just say he would have all of the elect to be saved ? Why would he say all men ? Well , There is an answer to that , That is this book has traps in it and if you don't approach this book on its terms , And you don't study it like God told you to study it , Like for example comparing spiritual things with spiritual which is what im doing with that all men passage , Im comparing it with other verses to get the scope of it , If your unwilling to do that , Your not going to understand it , This book was written for people who approach it on God's terms , And if you don't approach it on God's terms your not going to understand it , And it was written on purpose like that . But , When we talk about all men , When we use that kind of expression there are two different ways logicly that can be applied , You can mean all collectively or all distributively , Now if i use the word all collectively , Im referring to all of whatever im talking about without exception , But if i use the word all distributively , I mean some of all sorts or all without distinction . Now let me show you what i mean . Eph . 3:8-9 Where Paul was writing about his ministry . Unto me , who am less than the least of all saints , is this grace given , that i should preach amoung the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God , who created all things by Jesus Christ . Now when Paul says that he was given this grace to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , He doesn't mean all men without exception , Because we know that all men without exception don't see the mystery , among the mass of all men collectively are multitudes who will not , And , Yes who cannot see the gospel . Let me give you a couple of verses that show that there are people that will not and cannot see the gospel , For example in 2 Cor.4:3-4 But If our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost : In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not , lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ , who is the image of God , should shine unto them . So here are people that don't see it because their minds are blinded , and when you are blind you can't see , and then of course i already quoted 1 Cor. 2:14 Where Paul says the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them , he cannot know them for they are spiritualy discerned , It is all men distributively , that is all men without distinction or all kinds of men , to make all kinds of men see , and we use the word all like that , For example , I might say my father ate all foods , My father loves all things , Talking about food , I don't mean everything without exception , You understand me when i say that , He likes , Or eats all kinds of food . Eph. 3:9 Paul was saying , to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , and Paul didn't make every man without exception see it , But he made all kinds of men see it , all kinds of people responded to Paul's preaching .And even in the Bible it shows very clearly that Paul's ministry was effectual in the conversion , Not of all men collectively , But of all kinds of men . Let me give you a couple examples of that Rom. 1:14-15 Paul says , I am a debtor both to the Greeks , and to the barbarians ; both to the wise and the unwise . So , as much as in me is , I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are in Rome also . Don't you see how his ministry was geared toward all kinds of men ? Greeks , barbarians , wise , unwise and those at Rome as well , Or another good example would be 1 Cor . 9:19 So when we talk about making all men see , We are talking about all kinds of men , This is using the word distributively , Again we do the same thing , I'll give you some more biblical examples of this , How we use the word all in the distributive sense as opposed to a collective sense , Paul says , For though i be free from all men , yet have i made myself servant unto all, that i might gain the more . And unto the Jews [ thats one kind of man ] i became a Jew , that i might gain the Jews ; to them that are under the law , as under the law , that i might gain them that are under the law ; To them that are without law , as without law , ( being not without law law to God , but under the law to Christ ,) that i might gain them that are without law . To the weak became i as weak , that i might gain the weak : I am made all things to all men , Don't you see he doesn't mean all men without exception ? , he's meaning all men without distinction , made all things for all kinds of men and he just gave you examples of different kinds . The point is that his ministry was geared toward all kinds of men and he's using that word all men in a distributive sense instead of a collective sense , And the Bible does that in other places , For example Rom. 14:2 Paul writes here , For one believeth that he may eat all things : another , who is weak , eateth herbs . Now is paul saying here that one person believes he can eat all things without exception ? All things without exception is rediculous , nobody can eat all things without exception , I don't care how big you are , its obviously all things without distinction . It's some of all sorts of food without distinction . Then go to Acts 2:16 and this one even clearly illustrates this , To show you that it is talking about all kinds of , As opposed to all without exception , So when you are talking about useing the word all collectively - you mean all without exception , when you are using the word all distributively you mean all without distinction that is , some of all kinds . And when Paul says he was made all things to all men , It's obvious there was an exception to that , He wasn't made a drunk to the drunkards , A thief to the theives , A sodomite to the sodomites , Obviously there was an exception , This is a clear cut case where the word all , Means all in a given context of consideration as opposed to all without exception . Acts 2:16-18 Here is the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out and it says , This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days , saith God , I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh , Now on the day of pentecost was the Holy Spirit poured out upon all flesh without exception ? No , But yet it says it was upon all flesh , Well what he is meaning here is not all flesh without exception but all flesh without distinction , Then he gives examples . And your sons and daughters shall prophesy , And your young men shall see visions , And your old men shall dream dreams ; See , Notice young and old , sons and daughters , different kinds of flesh , So , Do you see the point ? So when Paul says he will have all men to be saved he's not meaning all men without exception , But all men without distinction , In other words , All kinds of men . And if you look at the context of Pauls statement , Go back to 1 Tim. 2:1-3 you'll see the point , Notice verses 1-3 leading up to verse 4 , I exhort therefore that, First of all, supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks , be made for all men , Then notice how he talks about different kinds . For kings , and all that are in authourity ; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty . [B]Notice how he says pray for all men , then he brakes it down into a certain kind of men [/B], kings and all that are in authourity , And then he goes on to say , For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ; Who will have all men to be saved , and come unto the knowledge of the truth. So even there you are getting the idea of all kinds of men as opposed to all men without exception . |
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#30
08-30-2008, 05:52 PM
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Grace,
Already showed the scriptures in previous posts, itis not a teaching of mere man but God. go backa few post and you will see listed some verses including John3:16 Forrest, you wont get through to Grace because he/she wont see the all meaning anything but the elect even when all means all. His/her mind is made up on the matter. You can tell how entrenched he/she is by the amount of words, and scriptures out of context he/she is using. and even when you do find one that stumps him/her, he/she will always come back asking what about what it says here with a scripture out of context and wrongly divided. Last edited by chette777; 08-30-2008 at 06:01 PM. |
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