[Luke]

There aren't many Bible Believers who believe in calvinist election. There are plenty of fundamentalists that do, but Bible Believers.. not too many.

Lawrence Vance has a great book on the subject. The Otherside of Calvinism. 90% of the quotes in the book are from calvinists, so they can't complain about being misrepresented.

Very good book that I recommend to anyone involved in Calvinism, or doesn't understand it's full theological implications (God is the author of sin etc).

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by gophgetter

...This teaching is referred to as "limited atonement" in the 5 points of Calvinism. I would like to know this groups thoughts on this subject. Did Jesus die for only an elect few or did he die for all? Your thoughts please.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).

Yes, Jesus even died for those who deny Him.

[PB1789]

Originally Posted by JerryW

Christ only died for his chosen people(the elect, his sheep, or the called, whatever term you want to use to describe those he foreknew before the world even began). It was not necessary for Christ to die for the reprobate(unbelievers who would not be saved)because he is not a man, thus he already knew before he even went to the cross who would believe and who would not! God is not going "thru time" with us, as we are in this earthly life. He knew the end from the beginning.

AMEN! Good answer JerryW..!

Rather than stop reading at John 3:16,,, folks should read John chapter 6 and then turn over to John chapter 17 and read that. Even though the Thread starter is "Banned"...I hope he will actually read these two chapters and Romans chapter 9-especially verses 12-22.

Since someone else mentioned a book to read, I'll mention one very germaine to the subject of the Thread: "The death of death in the death of Christ" by John Owen. Look for a pamphlet titled "The Introductory essay" by J.I. Packer---It might be found on the internet (do the Google). It is the primer for reading the book by John Owen.

..."My sheep hear My voice"... Jesus the Christ

[chette777]

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all,

Clearly Christ is potrayed as dying for all men not just us who were chosen in Christ. Gods choice was made by foreknowing who of us would be in Christ. see Eph 1:4. it is only those who believe we should no longer live lives of sinfulness.

1John 2:1 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
the propitiation came by Christs death that was for all, but not all will accept his work. does the whole world beleive? No but Christ died for them just the same that he might bring them to God.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
here again Christ is saviour of the world this is not the planet but the all the people of the planet. but again not all will receive the free gift of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
again he dies for all. only those who beleive will not perish. many whom he died for will go to hell and suffer eternally with the memory of every time the Gospel was spoken to them and they didn't beleive.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
and here again Christ suffered for all are unjust. every man is born unjust into this world. the cliker is the fact that he might bring us to God which tells us not all who here of his sufferig will beleive.

to say God only allowed Christ to die for some and not for others, portrays a God who acts more human than a Just Almighty God. Christ died for all humanity but not all humanity will accepts Christs death on their behalf.

Owen and Packer are Calvinist

[PB1789]

To the Thread Starter: Besides reading John 6 and John 17, see also Ephesians chapter 1.

Here is the article/essay by Dr. Packer ...enjoy!

http://www.monergism.com/thethrehsol...ker_intro.html

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Rather than stop reading at John 3:16,,, folks should read John chapter 6 and then turn over to John chapter 17 and read that.

..."My sheep hear My voice"... Jesus the Christ

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).

Were the false prophets the elect of God?

Are the false teachers the elect of God?

Are the proclaimers of damnable heresies the elect of God?

What does it mean that the false prophets, false teachers, and proclaimers of damnable heresies denied the Lord that bought them? Did Jesus shed His blood for them too? Did He die for all men? Even those who deny Him?

I too believe that Jesus is the propitiation for my sins, and not for mine only, but for the sins of the whole world.

[chette777]

Packer is a calvinist. I am not and we would not agree. his view is base on interpretation of scriputre out of context, mine is based on clear scripture context. I have read a lot of Packers stuff and I got rid of them when I realized he was not biblical in atonement being for only the saved(limited atonement), preserving only the Saved(preservation of the saints), drawing only the saved (irrisitable grace), man has no free will to choose(total depravity), and choosing only the saved(unconditional election).

Gods choice is made clear that he chose us IN HIM. that is he by foreknowledge chose those whom he saw would accept Christ there by being in him he blessed us with all spiritual blessings, to be Holy and without blame before him, to be predestined.Etc etc Etc.... Eph 1. some think God's way of choosig does not exist in scripture but it does.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

Packer is a calvinist.

Gods choice is made clear that he chose us IN HIM. that is he by foreknowledge chose those whom he saw would accept Christ there by being in him he blessed us with all spiritual blessings, to be Holy and without blame before him, to be predestined.Etc etc Etc.... Eph 1. some think God's way of choosig does not exist in scripture but it does.

Amen. That is the truth. When we rightly divide the Word, it is so clear.

"According as he hath chosen us in him [Jesus Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Ephesians 1:$) We are in Him by believing in Him.

Whosoever believes in Jesus is not condemned, but has everlasting life. Whoever does not believe, is condemned already. Why? Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This was and still is God's Sovereign plan which was put in place before the foundation of the world. What a wonderful plan. "...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." Do you believe the written record?

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:5).

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Ephesians 1:7).

So whether it's chosen, predestinated, adopted, accepted, redeemed, or forgiven...it's always in, of, by, and for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (Ephesians 1:3).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

Many people think the word world in John 3:16 means everyone with out exception , I thought i would explain what the scriptures teach about it .
John 3:16 says ; For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son , Now its obvious that the object of Gods love is the world , but when you define the word world in the dictionary ; look at it , because most people when they look at the word world , they think that that standing all by itself is a proof that God loves all mankind without exception . Now the word world is one of those words that actually has more than one primary meaning , when you look at oxfords english dictionary you can see the definition subdivided by roman numerals and that means that these are different primary meanings that that word has , and the first one is human existance or a period of this , so when you are talking about human existance you are talking about the world . The second meaning is the earth or a region of it , the universe or a part of it , so when we are talking about this globe or when we are talking about this universe we call it the world . And then third and this is the one that applies to John 3:16 , it means the inhabitants of the earth or a section of them , Now thats very obvious when you read John 3:16 that thats the kind of world he's talking about , he's talking about the world of people or inhabitants of the earth , For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life , we are obviously talking there about people , Whosoever is a personal pronoun referring to people , so thats the world he's dealing with , now , when you look at it refering to the inhabitants of the earth , I think its interesting that the primary meaning of the word is the inhabitants of the earth or a section of them , to be sure the word world can refer to the totality of the inhabitants of this earth but it does not nessisarily refer to that , it may , But not nessisarily , Because it can also be referring to a section of the inhabitants of this earth , so what im saying , Is just the statement God so loved the world standing by itself does not define or prove whether the world there is everybody or a section of everybody , And this brings up the whole point that is very basic in Bible study and that is differentiating between what we would call a proof text and a reference text, A proof text just flat out says it , no way around it , where as a reference text is referring to something that has to be elsewhere defined , In other words , If the Bible elsewhere taught that God loved every human being without exception then John 3:16 could be used to refer to that it would support that , But if the Bible teaches that God only loves a section of the inhabitants of this earth John 3:16 will equally support that , So what its doing is referring to a point that is elsewhere defined , That is not defined within that verse . That is a tremendous point for me personally , i can remember when i for a while bought into the idea that God loved everybody and wanted everybody to be saved , and i can remember coming to believe in the doctrine of election but really struggling with John 3:16 , I just didn't know what to do with it , And i would stare at it and just say election has got to be in there somewhere , where is it? Well the trap that i was in , Was at that time i really didn't understand how to study the Bible , And i didn't understand how to compare scripture with scripture , And i didn't understand the difference between a proof text and a reference text , So i was thinking that some how John 3:16 would have to have the answer incased in it , well , in fact you will often hear people say that John 3:16 it has actually been called the little Bible , Meaning that it is self contained , That all by itself it has every thing you need to know about the gospel , Its just got everything right there in it , not so , John 3:16 was never meant to be understood standing alone separated from everything else . And that is evidenced by the fact that the very first word of John 3:16 is the word For , which is a connective conjuctive adverb that is linking that sentence to the sentence that goes before it , so God never meant for John 3:16 to stand out there all on its own , independent of the rest of what God had to say about the subject matter in John 3:16 , See that point ? The very first word is letting you know that you have to look beyond just that verse to really get everthing God is saying to us in that verse. Well anyway if you go back to where it says God so loved the world , I can remember struggling with this verse and trying to figure out how it reconciled with election , And as i was driving to church and i turned on the radio and i heard this fellow preaching named Farrell Griswold and Farrell Griswold was a baptist preacher and he was a sovereign grace baptist preacher who believed in unconditional election , He did not believe God loved everybody , he understood that doctrine and he taught it , and he was preaching that morning and i don't remember what he was preaching on , But i could tell he was a soveriegn grace preacher , So i phoned the church where he was preaching and i remember the conversation vividly , And i asked him , I said what do you do with John 3:16 ? How do you reconcile that with a verse like Romans 9:13 that says Jacob have i loved , But Esau have i hated ? If you just step back for a moment , Here you got a verse that says God so loved the world and people will insist that that is every human being without exception , And then you go over here to Romans 9:13 and it says Jacob have i loved and Esau have i hated , And here is a verse that plainly tells you that there is at least one inhabitant of this earth that God dosn't love , So how then can the world be everybody If he hates Esau ? And then you have a verse like Psalm 5:5 where it says that the Lord hates all workers of iniquity , Now if God hates all workers of iniquity and we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God , How do you reconcile a verse that teaches that God hates them all with a verse that teaches he loves them all ? It starts to get a little confusing , And this is where some people finally give up in dismay , And say you can't make any sense out of the book , Well not so fast , Here me out before you draw that conclusion . On the face of it it does look a little difficult to sort out , Well i remember phoning Farrel Griswold and asking him what do you do with John 3:16 ? And he said when you look at that word world it is used many different ways in the Bible , To refer to different groups of people in the Bible , And he started right off with that passage that anybody that ever celebrated Christmas is familiar with ,Its the one over here in Luke 2:1 , And he starts reading that off . It came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus , That all the world should be taxed . Now , This not only says the world , but all the world . You come here , And he has this decree that all the world should be taxed , And Farrel said obviously you and i weren't taxed , We weren't part of that world , It was obviously talking about the Roman world , The world that was under the taxing jurisdiction of the Roman empire . And it was just like bing , duh, Thats obvious how do you miss that ? And it started to click , yea , That word world doesn't always have to refer to all mankind without exception , it can refer to a section of the inhabitants of the earth , a section , a part of mankind , which is exactly what the dictionary says that very frequently that word is refering to . Well once you get that insight then you come up with a verse like this in Hebrews 1:2 that says God hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son , whom he hath appointed heir of all things , by whom also he made the worlds ; there is more than one . Alright that helps , The question is which one did God love considering there is more than one ? Alright , First of all you have that example in Luke 2:1 where it refers to a section of the earths inhabitants , Those that were part of the Roman world if you will , The world of the Roman empire , And then once you see that , All you've got to do is just flip open a concordance and look at the word world and the different ways its used in the new testament and you can just see place after place where it is obviously not talking about all mankind without exception , its obviously not talking about all the inhabitants of the earth , its only talking about a section of them , As for example John 15:19 we are looking at the fact that the word world will refer to not all the earths inhabitants , But a section of them , A portion of mankind , And this point becomes very obvious . Jesus is talking to his disciples in the upper room he said if ye were of the world , the world would love his own , but because ye are not of the world , but i have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth you . What ever this world is in John 15:19 the disciples are obviously not part of it , Because if they are part of it then they would be hating themselves , because it says the world hateth you , They are obviously not part of it because he says in language which is to plain to miss he says i have choosen you out of it , He said if you were of it - which suggests they were not . So here is a case where the word world obviously does not refer to all mankind without exception , the disciples are obviously excluded from it . We come over to John 17:9 and this gives you two distinct groups very clearly . It says i pray for them : i pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me ; for they are thine. You have two groups in this verse [ them and the world ] . Jesus prays for them , he doesn't pray for the world , so here the world obviously isn't referring to all mankind without exception , Those whom Christ prayed for are obviously excepted from it . This also brings up an interesting point , If that word world is referring to the same group throughout , Doesn't it strike you as strange that Jesus Christ would refuse to pray for a world that God loved so much that he sent him to die for it ? Can you imagine the Son of God coming down here and dying for the world and then refusing to pray for it , I think he would at least be praying that they would accept what he did for them . Wouldn't that make sense , if he did do it for them as is often taught . So right there you have the word world referring to a group that doesn't include everybody . Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out , that old serpent called the devil , and satan , which decieveth the whole world : . Now notice the devil and satan decieveth the whole world , the whole world , how do you like that ? he was cast out into the earth , and his angels were cast out with him. Now does this whole world include everybody without exception ? Well just read verse 11 where it talks about some people and it says : And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb , and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death. So here's a whole world decieved , but here's some people that aren't decieved , who overcomes the devil that decieves the whole world , so they are obviously not part of it .Do you see that ? theres a good example . Then there is this example in Romans chapter 11 showing you how the word world refers to different groups , And does not neccesarily mean everybody without exception , We are giving examples where it couldn't be everybody without exception . Now if the fall of them [ he's talking about the fall of the Jews as opposed to the gentiles] watch it . Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world , [ two groups , the them is obviously referring to the Jews you just have to read up a few verses , He's clearly talking about the Jews , And the world , This world is in contradistiction to the Jews , Now who are they ? Keep reading ] and the diminishing of them [ thats the Jews ] the riches of the gentiles ; [ there you have it , here the word world is referring to the gentiles as opposed to the Jews , that section of the earths inhabitants that are gentiles as opposed to that section that are Jewish . Then go on down in verse 15 , For if the casting away of them [thats the Jews ] be the reconciling of the world [ another example of the word world being used to referred to the gentiles ] So here we have several verses that are clearly showing the word world being used in your Bible to refer to a section of mankind as opposed to all mankind without exception . What we have done so far is establish that the word world in John 3:16 isn't talking about the whole of mankind , Because we know one guy that isn't in there and his name is Esau ,Jacob have i loved , but Esau have i hated , secondly we've seen that it can be used to refer to a section of the earths inhabitants , as opposed to all of them without exception , so that John 3:16 is not nessisarily proving that God loves everybody without exception , so thats all we've established so far , What remains to be established is : Who is this world ? Who is included in it ? Well first of all Romans chapter 8:39 is a very important verse because it locates the love of God for us , it says ; Nor height , nor depth , nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of God , which is in Christ Jesus our Lord . The love of God is in Christ Jesus our Lord , so , for us to be loved of God , where do we need to be ? We need to be in Christ Jesus our Lord , and thats what the doctrine of election is all about , Its according to Ephesians 1 we are told . According as he hath chosen us in him [ God chooses us in Jesus Christ , that act of election puts us into Jesus Christ where we are now loved of God , because the love of God is in Christ Jesus , so what ever the world of John 3:16 is , Its the world that is in Jesus Christ and that links up very nicely with those who are chosen in Christ by God ], According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love . So the world of John 3:16 equals those that are chosen in Christ Jesus where the love of God is , When you read John 3:16 one thing that is obvious on the face of it is that it is Gods intention to give eternal life to this world , For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that [ here's the intention for doing that ] whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life . So in order to find out the world in John 3:16 find out those to whom God intends to give eternal life , And you will have found the world , Because its obvious what ever that world is in John 3:16 , God wants it to have eternal life. Isn't that plain ? God so loved that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. So find the world that God wants to give eternal life to and you have found the world of John 3:16 , Well thats not hard to do come over to John 17 :2 , John 17:2 defines it for us , In fact before we even read John 17:2 let me give you this before we go there . John 6 :33 , here's another world verse , This is the bread of life discourse , Jesus is defining himself as the bread of God , and he says , For the bread of God is he which cometh down [ God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son , here he is coming down to assume that office of sonship , to be given for the world ] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world . I want you to look at that sentence and i want you to look at exactly what it says , pay very careful attention to the verbs and what they say because they say something different than what many people teach , many people teach that Jesus Christ came into the world to make it possible for people to get eternal life , to offer eternal life , Now look at what this says , For the bread of God is he which cometh , [ Now , Did he come ? Did he do it ? Isn't that stating a fact , something he did , nobody disputes whether it happened or it didn't happen , it happened. ] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven and giveth [ same kind of verb ] and giveth life unto the world , Now if when it says he cometh that means he came , and where it says and giveth life unto the world , that means he did it . He didn't come to try to give or to make it possible for them to have , It says he came and gave , He cometh and giveth life unto the world , Whoever this world in John 6:33 is , They are going to get life because he came to give it to them , And they are going to get it as sure as he came , because he cometh and giveth life unto the world , Well , You find out to whom the Son of God gives eternal life and you have found this world , And that will be the world of John 3:16 because its obvious the world of John 3:16 is the world that God sent his Son to give eternal life to. Now , who is that world ? who's in that world ? Look at John 17:2 Jesus is praying and says , Father , the hour is come ;glorify thy Son , that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh , that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him . Now you have tracked it down , thats the world he giveth life to , Its the world that consists of those that God the Father gave to Jesus Christ , that is the elect, Notice that Christ gives life to the world he doesn't offer it .
He gives life to those the Father gave him , Thus the world consists of those given to Christ by God the Father , This is the world of John 3:16. We could say coupling John 3:16 with Eph. 1:4 that the world that God so loved that he sent Christ in it , to die for it , to give it eternal life , is the world that is in Christ. Now notice that John says as many as thou hast given him , Now God gives them to Christ , and since God gives them to Christ they are therefore Christ's [ you put that appostrophe s on a name or a noun that makes it possesive ]. So if i give ten dollars to Jon , Now that ten dollars is Jon's it belongs to him because i gave it to him . So God has given some people to Jesus Christ and because of that they are his , In verse 9 he said , I pray for them ; i pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me ; for they are thine . And all mine are thine , and thine are mine; [ you gave them to me so they are mine ] Thats why we say they are Christ's , Because God gave them to Christ therefore they are his. I think a good verse along that line is John chapter 10 , Talking about the sheep , When Jesus refers to them as my sheep [ so they belong to him ] and im leading up to something here in John 10:26-29 He says to the Jews ; But ye believe not , because ye are not of my sheep , as i said unto you . My sheep hear my voice , and i know them , and they follow me : And i give unto them [ that is my sheep ] eternal life . i do it , i give it , i don't offer it , i give it to them , I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand . My Father , which gave them me [God gave them to the Son that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him , He gave the sheep to the Son therefore they are Christ's , They belong to him and he gives them eternal life . Now one of the points i want to make from that is this thing of giving them to Christ and therefore they are Christ's ,There is one arguement i have run into , Go to Eph.1:4 These people that don't believe in unconditional election , They will say God has chosen us in Christ , And their arguement goes like this , It says he chose us in Christ it didn't say he chose us into Christ , So what you need to do sinner is get into Christ , And if you get into Christ then your chosen , So that you actually have something to do with making yourself one of God's elect , You get into Christ and then you will be chosen because we are chosen in Christ . What im going to show you is to be in Christ and to be given to Christ are the same thing so how do you get in Christ ? By God giving you to Christ , When God gave you to Christ and you therefore became Christ's property and possesion , As per that act you were in Christ. You don't become Christ's because you gave yourself to him , you become Christ's because God gave you to him , That he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him . Jn.6:38 I came down from heaven not to do my own will , but the will of him that sent me .And this is the fathers will which hath sent me , that of all which thou hast given me i should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Notice Jn.6:38-39 the purpose for God sending the Son is to save those God gave him , That defines the world of Jn.3:16 , God so loved that he gave his only begotten Son , Sent him into the world to save that world , To save those God gave him, To as many as thou hast given me i should loose nothing , Those are the ones God wants Jesus to save , Thats the world God loves and sent his Son to save , For God sent not his Son in the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , And the ones God wants saved are those that God gave to his Son , I came down from heaven not to do mine own will , But the will of him that sent me .And this is my Fathers will which hath sent me , That of all which he hath given me i should lose nothing , In other words , Save them. Because thats what it means to save something its not to lose it . Now look at 1 Cor. 15 and i want to show you that being given to Christ , Being Christ's , And being in Christ are the same thing . Look at this , Verse 22 For as in Adam all die , Even so in Christ shall all be made alive . Notice in Christ shall all be made alive , but every man in his own order , [ He's going to explain these in Christ that are made alive ] Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming . Notice those in Christ in verse 22 equal those that are Christ's , Those that are the property of Jesus Christ , possessed by Christ are those who are in Christ , So when God gave you to Jesus Christ at that point you were in Christ , doesn't that agree beautifully with 1 Cor.1:30 that says of him , that is of God are ye in Christ Jesus , It's of God your in Christ , God chose you in Christ , God gave you to Christ, Does everybody see that ? Doesn't that link up nicely ? To be Christ's [ possesive ] is to be in Christ . I think its interesting , Jesus makes this statement in John 10 :28 talking about the sheep he says , I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand . Now if they cannot be plucked out of his hand , Where does that tell you that they are ? They are in the hand , You see , They are in Christ . Now notice he said my Father , Which gave them me , See , To be given to Christ is to be put in Christ . God gives them to him so they are therefore in him and he saves those that are given to him . So the world of John 3:16 is very clearly the world that God gave to Jesus Christ to save . Go back to John 3:16 and look at something here , The very first word for God so loved the world , If people would do a little Bible reading and think through some things they would learn some things , They would learn that this world in John 3:16 isn't every human being without exception , Notice For God so loved the world , First word For , Connecting to the sentence that went before , The sentence that went before comprises verses 14-15 , And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness , Even so must the Son of man be lifted up , And he's talking here about his death on the cross , Because when he was nailed on the cross he was then lifted up , That refers to a crucifiction death , Being lifted up , Just like the serpent was lifted up on the pole , Jesus Christ was lifted up on the cross . Now let's go look at the story of Moses lifting up the serpent on the pole and Jesus Christ is saying my death is going to be the same way , There's a parralel here , There's something you can see that paralels the two events . Numbers 21:4-9 And they jouneyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea , to compass the land of Edom : and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. And the people spake against God , And against Moses , Wherefore have ye brought us out of Egypt to die in the wilderness ? for there is no bread , neither is there any water ; and our soul loatheth this light bread . And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people , and they bit the people ; and much people of Israel died . [ remember that ] Therefore the people came to Moses , and said , We have sinned , for we have spoken against the Lord , and against thee ; pray unto the Lord , that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people . And the Lord said unto Moses , Make thee a fiery serpent , and set it on a pole : and it shall come to pass that every one that is bitten , when he looketh upon it , shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass , and put it upon a pole , and it came to pass , that if a serpent had bitten any man , when he beheld the serpent of brass , he lived. Now , First thing , When Moses lifted up this serpent in the wilderness , Did he lift it up for all mankind ? No, Only for Israel who were God's chosen people journeying through the wilderness , So right there you've got a picture of a limited atonement , Not being provided for all mankind but only for a section of them , Not only that even when it came to the people of Israel , It wasn't even lifted up for all of them , Because verse 6 says much of the people of Israel died , Some of those were dead already before the serpent was even lifted up , So it was only lifted up for those whom God spared to live to be able to look , And so a beautiful picture of a limited atonement , A beautiful picture of Christ dying for the elect . Isn't it interesting that he connects Gods love of the world and the giving of his Son with this historical fact , Which reminds us of what Paul says the gospel is , And that is that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures , The death of Christ was according to the prophecy and the pictures and types given in scripture and the types of the death of Christ that we have in scripture like the lifting up of the serpent on the pole show him not lifted up for all mankind , But only for a section of them . Or another one , Christ our passover sacrificed for us , Fulfilling the type of the passover lamb , And the interesting thing about that is there was no passover lamb provided for the Egyptians, It was only provided for Gods chosen people Israel , And Christ died according to that pattern , He died according to the scriptures , Or then when you get to a prophecy of his death , You will find that in Isaiah 53:8 and it says this , He was taken from prison and from judgement : And who shall declare his generation ? for he was cut off out of the land of the living , [ This is a prophecy of his death ] For the transgression of my people was he stricken. Not for everybody without exception , But for God's people who were God's elect , Which agrees with Matt. 1:21 The angelic announcement , Thou shalt call his name Jesus , for he shall save his people from their sins . So when you take all these verses and plug them in to John 3:16 it clearly defines the world that God so loved that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life , As the world that is in Christ , Because God's love is in Christ , It's the world of God's elect who were chosen in Christ because they were given to Christ by God , Its the world of those that God the Father gave him that he should lose none of them , But raise it up again at the last day . That's the world of John 3:16 the world of God's elect , Chosen in Christ , Given to Christ and Christ entered the world to give eternal life to them .

[chette777]

of course John 3:16 is not difinitve for Gods salvation for the elect only or anyone for that matter. it is proof he loves the whole world including sinner who will go to hell. it is his will none shoud perish. But he knows that all will not beleive

The other verses shared in earlier post are clear that Jesus did die even for those who will not beleive as well as those who do.

no one ever implied that all men without exception will be saved. the choice is in the hand of each man as he hears the gospel. that is how John discribes it as well to the one who beleives everlasting life to those who do not everlasting condemnation.

the sheep may have an applicable lesson for the church today. but there is another interpretatin, a historical interpretation, the lost sheep that Christ gathers before his cross are all Jews. for he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. he say my sheep hear my voice, hearing his voice before the cross was a historical and many Jews believed and none were lost. today no difference between the house of Israel and Gentile, all hear the voice of God via the scriptures. and have their choice to beleive or not.

the Jacob and Easu text is out of context for God only prefered to go through Jacob and not Esau for the lineage of Christ. Hate does not always carry with it the idea of of aboration. in this case and the case of Who so ever doesn't hate his mother father sister or brother statement it is not of an abhoration but of preference. we must prefere Christ above even our closest family.

English words have over the last 300 years have degenerated to such levels that many do not know some of the other meanings other than the Negative ones attached to them. a good reading for those who would like to learn more on the degeneration of English words get a copy of "By Definition, a readers guide tothe King James Bible" by James W Knox.