Jeff, that was uncalled for. You didn't pay attention to what I said. According to your doctrine of eternal security, you are saying I'm not really saved.

I'm saved. And, I'm secure in that salvation. I just don't think you are understanding what I'm saying.

Well, Jerry, there you go again. I'm showing you Scriptures, and none from the book of first opinions.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

What about those who don’t endure? Do they still get the crown of life?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What about those who don’t endure? This is an example of the 3rd seed in the parable of the sower. It didn’t endure. So if you don’t endure to the end, will you still be saved? I know this is talking about the tribulation, but is salvation by some other method during the tribulation? Or, is it still by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and Him rising from the dead? If salvation is still the same as before the tribulation, and I believe it is, then, they can lose their salvation.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Here is another example of the 3rd seed in the parable of the sower. So, according the doctrine of eternal security, either Demas wasn’t saved to begin with, or, he’s still saved, even though he chose to forsake his faith for the world.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

How do you explain this passage? Once they’ve turned away, it looks like they are “unsaved” looking at verse 8.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul, by his own words, is saying he could be accursed for sharing a different gospel. It’s stated as a possibility, though highly improbable.

That is why I say both are true (eternal security and the possibility of losing it). God offers eternal life and assurance of salvation to the believer, with loads of help from the Holy Ghost and the Bible. But the Scriptures plainly teach that there is a possibility of salvation being lost. These passages can’t simply be cast aside. If there wasn’t a possibility, why such severe warnings?

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

What happens if we are careless about maintaining good works?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

So, if one falls away from their own stedfastness, there is still no way salvation can be lost? Why the warning?

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

These Christians, if they don’t repent, will miss the rapture and go through the tribulation (unless you are a post-trib raptures person, then there is another problem).

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

These Christians miss the tribulation. So, the former were backslidden. If they take the mark of the beast during the tribulation, then they are damned. So, how does the doctrine of eternal security work here?

There is a possibility that we can lose our salvation as seen in the Scriptures I’ve presented. Chances are, all of you here reading this who believe in eternal security wouldn’t choose to walk away. That is a stupid thing to do. So, you believing that doctrine doesn’t cause any harm. But that isn’t true for everyone. I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years and haven’t fallen away and I thank the Lord for His keeping power. But in that time, I’ve seen the doctrine of eternal security give some people false security who lived damnable lives, still claiming to be saved, while they were stumbling others all over the place by their carelessness.

Eternal security is a careless doctrine.

Jeff, in answer to your question, yes there were times I was afraid of not pleasing my earthly father. And, yes, he could have disowned me. I've counselled with some people who've been disowned by their fathers. But that doesn't prove or disprove the doctrine of eternal security.

[Debau]

I liken being saved and then deciding to be lost again, and back and forth, akin to Roman Catholicism's transubstantiation, and all their works based salvation beliefs. Or the belief of reincarnation of an eternal spirit from one body to another. I believe Revangelist may have a lack of understanding of the finished work of Christ. Maybe a word study on the words translated redeem(ed)(paid in full), or the Blood of Christ. God's finished work on the Cross involves redemption(towards sin), reconciliation(towards man), and propitiation(towards God). All are separate aspects that make up the once and for all finished work of Christ. To say we can be saved and be lost is to deny the finished work and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, and to count the blood of Christ as common such as bulls and goats which cover only temporarily.

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:28

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 24-25

"That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." I Pet 1:23

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" I Pet 3:18

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev 22:11

Crowns are rewards for believers - not salvation itself. You cannot earn salvation - but you can earn rewards.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what? The passage doesn't even mention Hell or sins. It is talking about being saved from death during the Tribulation period - ie. physical deliverance, not spiritual. Jesus was speaking to saved people during the Tribulation, and was telling them if they persevered, they would live to see His return - otherwise they would be martyred under the antichrist's persecutions or during some of the afflictions of the Tribulation period.

For those who want to argue that saved must always be referring to spiritual salvation - ie. from sins or from Hell - read this verse:

Psalms 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

Context determines what type/kind of salvation is in view.

[Jeff]

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

What about those who don’t endure? Do they still get the crown of life?

This is speaking of rewards, much as a medal awarded to an athlete. Do you think we'll all receive the same rewards in Heaven? Do you think I'll receive the same honors as a martyr who has been faithful unto death?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Does "saved" used here refer to salvation, or is it just saying they will survive until the Second Advent?

Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

This verse doesn't address Demas' salvation at all, so what can we read in to it?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I see this whole statement is addressing an impossibility. At the risk of sounding ridiculous I might say something like, "It is impossible that if you were to flap your arms and fly to Mars that you could survive without an oxygen tank."

I beleive this passage is actually addressing the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ. If Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to save us and keep us saved once and for all, then there is no hope of any other sacrifice. I do also see this as a warning to those who profess to be Christian, but think they can give it up and take it back up again as suits their free will.

A true Christian will bear fruit, not briars and thorns.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

This is teaching how we should deal with false teachers. Can a true Christian teach false doctrine? I think so, but is this talking about differences on minor points, or about heresy? Can a true Christian teach heresy? Even if he could he would still need to be shunned.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

What does stedfastness have to do with salvation? Again, even though I believe in eternal security there are still standards of obiedience I need to meet to be pleasing to the Lord to meet His will.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

I think repentence has been considered before. Do you consider repentance a work?

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

Jeff, in answer to your question, yes there were times I was afraid of not pleasing my earthly father. And, yes, he could have disowned me. I've counselled with some people who've been disowned by their fathers. But that doesn't prove or disprove the doctrine of eternal security.

I beleive this has been covered much before also. Are you really unable to see the clear application here by likening our Heavenly Father to our sinful earthly fathers who might choose to deny their clear responsibilities?

Hebrews 6 is dealing with apostates - those who knowingly reject the truth, not those who once were saved and then lost it - ie. those who heard the Gospel, understood it and still chose to reject Jesus Christ.

Demas was backslidden, loving the world - he didn't lose his salvation, but God couldn't use him because he was too wrapped up in this world.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

What happens if we are careless about maintaining good works?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

So, if one falls away from their own stedfastness, there is still no way salvation can be lost? Why the warning?

I could guess as well as you: lose their rewards, have more troubles in their spiritual walk - but there is absolutely nothing there about the loss of salvation.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

These Christians, if they don’t repent, will miss the rapture and go through the tribulation (unless you are a post-trib raptures person, then there is another problem).

These people weren't even saved - the description of those in this church spoken of here were lost - that is why they were told to repent and be overcomers - and 1 John 5:4-5 teaches that we overcome this world when we trust Christ for salvation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

These Christians miss the tribulation. So, the former were backslidden. If they take the mark of the beast during the tribulation, then they are damned. So, how does the doctrine of eternal security work here?

This verse is a promise to true believers that they will be raptured and not be here for this time of tribulation.

Eternal security is a careless doctrine.

No, but it is obviously a doctrine you have no use for. Too bad - maybe someday you will see it is true and we are saved through faith alone in Christ, regardless of how perfect or sinless you may think you are.