[CKG]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul is making a contrast. There is something from God. It is a gift as opposed to something we work for. The gift is not faith because then the contrast wouldn't make sense. Whoever heard of working for faith? The gift is salvation, not faith.

"...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

By His grace God gives salvation. By faith we receive His gift of salvation. God offers it to all, but only those who by faith receive it are saved.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

[peopleoftheway]

Brother George, thank you for those links to Brother Steven Rich, I found his way of explanation better than mine, I had read the scripture and seen the change (subtle) that the niv made in those verses in Galatians and the contrast it made doctrinally to what Paul was saying. Below is from Steven Rich.

Originally Posted by Stvvv1611

Jerry…you’re still missing Paul’s argument concerning Abraham in Romans 4. Paul is distinguishing between a justification based on a work element under OT economy from a justification based on a belief element alone which was to come upon the Gentile. Paul makes various contrasts in the first three chapters, that I’ve tried my best to show in previous posts, and then drives home his point using unique experiences regarding both Abraham and David. Both Abraham and David illustrate something different; things common to justification for the Gentile today. I promise not to make this an endless debate, but do need one more post after this to effectively deal with Abraham and David as presented in Romans 4.

As pointed out before…your position, that God justified the Jew the same way that God planned and justifies the Gentile today, is identical to that of the NIV.

Romans 3:30 (KJV) 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 (NIV) 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

No jerry… God justifying the ‘uncircumcision (Gentile) through faith’ is not the same as God justifying ‘the circumcision (Jew) by faith’! They’re NOT ‘same faith’!! In my next post I’ll show you exactly when and how Abraham became the father of both Jew and Gentile in context of Romans 4. I’ll also show you how David fits in. Jerry…I’m not trying to prove you wrong; I’m trying to prove the scripture right!

I will again prove the perversion of the NIV as I turn my attention to the ‘faith of Christ’ in this post. Till now, I’ve focused on the faith of God and faith of man in the OT. How about a sub title for this post before giving definitions…by way of review?

FAITH OF GOD – FAITH OF MAN – FAITH OF CHRIST

Faith of God = speaks to God’s credence; God’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Faith of Man = speaks to man’s credence; his faithfulness in obedience to God.

Habakkuk 2:4 …but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Jerry…this is exactly what Paul is pointing out in Romans 3:30 stating that; ‘God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith’.

Let’s use the ‘blood’ principle by way of illustrating this point; Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

A. The LORD shed blood for Adam & Eve

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

B. Abel offered blood for his own sin…

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

C. Job offered blood for the sins of his family

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

D. Job’s ‘friends’ offered blood

Job 42:8-9 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

E. Abraham was offering blood between Gen 12 & 14

Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.

F. Israel offered blood yet in Egypt

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

G. Priests offered blood for the sins of Israel under Mosaic Law once a year

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD…34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And…blood was offered daily for the sins of individuals!

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Jerry…please make special note to this ‘by faith’ and ‘blood’ principle because it is going to weigh in heavily when dealing with David in Romans 4! The Mosaic law covenanted for righteousness and forgiveness of sin… but, not for today!

Now, in turning the corner…

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV) 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Before defining the ‘faith of Christ’, let’s look once again at the perversion of the NIV in this and other verses regarding the ‘faith of Christ’:

Romans 3:22 (KJV) 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:22 (NIV) 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Philippians 3:9 (KJV) 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:9 (NIV) 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 (NIV) 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

The NIV absolutely perverts a doctrinal contrast Paul is making! Paul seeks to make the following contrast that the NIV destroys:

The ‘faith of God’ < > The ‘faith of Christ’
The righteousness of God with law < > The righteousness of God through Christ
Justification by works < > Justification by believing

Now to define the ‘faith of Christ’:

Faith of Christ = speaks to Christ’s credence; Christ’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable based on His accomplishments at the cross on our behalf.

The law was dead! Man had to provide the ‘life’ through obedience. Christ is alive and we’re ‘found in Him’ complete (Col 2:9-10)! Amen!

In each of the compared verses above the NIV doubles on ‘believing in Christ’ and emphasizes a believing in Christ where Paul is making a dogmatic contrast between faithful man under a dead law for righteousness to that of a faithful Christ unto believing men for righteousness!

Paul most definitely puts an emphasis on believing and that emphasis is put on believing in the ‘faith of Christ’!

Romans 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Present truth!)

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. … 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jerry…notice the emphases on believing?! Abraham (Rom 4) will come into play on that point.

There’s a terrific four point outline in 1Cor 1:30 that demonstrates the contrast between Moses/Israel/law and Christ:

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Here it is broken down in outline form…

1 Cor. 1:30
1. But of him,…of God
2. are ye in Christ Jesus
3. who…is made unto us:

A. wisdom – As in a crossword puzzle, the death burial and resurrection was hid in the Law of Moses, and in the Psalms, and in the prophets (as was hid to the 12 Apostles also; Lk 18:34; 24:44-46); 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

B. and righteousness – As the law was to Israel for righteousness and forgiveness of sin, so… Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

C. and sanctification – As Israel was baptized (consecrated/sanctified; 1Cor 10:1-2) unto Moses by the LORD (EX 14:21-31), so we are baptized (consecrated/sanctified) by the Spirit into Christ (1Cor 12:13).

D. and redemption – As the LORD redeemed Israel (Ex 6:6; 15:13) with an outstretched arm after the sacrificing the firstborn of Egypt (Ex 13:15), so we’ve been redeemed by Christ’s death and shed blood to deliver us from this present evil world (Gal 1:4; Tit 2:14; 1Pet 1:18-19).

Finally…my goal; next post will deal with Abraham and David (Rom 4) in proper context of Rom 3:29-30.

Romans 3:29-30 (KJV) 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I’m sure I’ll start off with an introduction to how vitally important it is in making and understanding this distinction between justification of Jew and Gentile by God. Not making this distinction is the foundation of many denominations and so many other controversial and divisive issues are resolved when such distinction is made.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

[George]

Aloha brother Winman,

The following are some brief comments (brief for me ) on some of your statements in your Post #10. These comments are in no way meant to castigate or berate you in any way. I sometimes am a little brusque in my comments, and often times people mistake my bluntness as a personal attack, which most of the time they are not.

"Boy, I'm getting a little confused, or perhaps I am not understanding everyone."

Please READ my Post #8 this Thread and check out ALL of brother Steven Rich's Posts - this is not a matter to be decided by the intellect, nor is it a matter of human reasoning.

"And it is clear that everybody has the personal choice to accept or refuse Christ."

It's NOT so much a matter of personal "choice"; "accept"; or "refuse"; as it is a matter of BELIEF, RECEIVE, or UNBELIEF. The former are all things that one can do with the MIND (i.e. the "intellect"); the latter are all things that must be done in the HEART! The "KEY" is "BELIEF" in Christ - NOT "choice". We did NOT "choose" the Lord Jesus Christ - we "BELIEVED" IN/ON Him. Your choice of words (in this case) is not very "Biblical":

You cannot find a place in the New Testament where anyone "chooses" (or "chose") God; "chooses" (or "chose") the Lord; "chooses" (or "chose") Jesus; or "chooses" (or "chose") Christ (the phrase is a "modern construct" that cannot be found in the Holy Bible - check it out with Swordsearcher). You cannot find a place in the New Testament where anyone "accepts" God; "accepts" the Lord; "accepts" Jesus; or "accepts" Christ (the phrase is a "modern construct" that cannot be found in the Holy Bible - check it out with Swordsearcher). You cannot find a place in the New Testament where anyone "refuses" God; "refuses" the Lord; "refuses" Jesus; or "refuses" Christ (the phrase is a "modern construct" that cannot be found in the Holy Bible - check it out with Swordsearcher).

A person may "choose" to BELIEVE in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. the Gospel). A person can RECEIVE the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour (but it's NOT a matter of "accepting" the person of Christ). A person can "refuse" to "believe" (i.e. UNBELIEF) in/on the Lord Jesus (i.e. the Gospel), but nowhere's in Scripture does it say a person can "refuse" Christ.

These may seem like small matters to you, but to me they amount to changing (substituting words not found in the text) and adding to the Holy words of God.

You are basing your personal belief on WORDS that are NOT associated with the issue; that is WORDS that have been SUBSTITUTED in place of Scriptural words - i.e. God's words that are found in the context and that are clearly associated with the issue. {This is WHY I am so "persnickety" when it comes to using Bible words when determining "Bible "Doctrine.}

"I have heard it said that grace and mercy are opposites. Grace is God giving us something we do not deserve, while mercy is God not giving us something we deserve."

I am afraid that ""I have heard it said" is not very "authoritative" with a Bible believer (such as myself). I need Scriptures to back up someone's personal beliefs.

"I tie the phrase "it is the gift of God" to "For by grace" in Eph 2:8, not to "through faith"."

Which, because of the "liberty" we have in Christ, is your prerogative. But on the other hand, I need MORE than your personal opinion to settle the matter.

"This is why God calls those who fail to believe disobediant ." Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The "failure" on the part of Israel was in refusing to BELIEVE "OUR REPORT", i.e. God's words (Isaiah 10:16). What's your point.

"Perhaps I am misunderstanding those here. If saving faith is a gift from God, then one can only conclude that those who are lost did not receive this gift from God."

You are absolutely right! They did not receive "this gift" BECAUSE they have NOT BELIEVED the Gospel of the Grace of God (i.e. Paul's gospel)

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because ofunbelief:

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

"thou standest by faith" - Now the question arises: By "WHO'S FAITH" am I standing? BY my own "faith"? After 50 years of being a child of God, I can testify that IF I am standing by MY OWN "FAITH" - I'm in trouble! I know better, because my personal FAITH - "ain't what it ought to be". I am standing by the "FAITH" of my Lord and Saviour

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

With all due respect brother, I believe that you are confusing or mixing up the words "faith" and "belief" - They are NOT THE SAME. I have addressed the issue of the difference between "faith" and "belief" in the following links:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=261
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=267
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=84
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=117
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=20

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by George

"thou standest by faith" - Now the question arises: By "WHO'S FAITH" am I standing? BY my own "faith"? After 50 years of being a child of God, I can testify that IF I am standing by MY OWN "FAITH" - I'm in trouble! I know better, because my personal FAITH - "ain't what it ought to be". I am standing by the "FAITH" of my Lord and Saviour

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Brother, this is what I was trying to convey, that we don't stand on our own faith, likewise if that was the case id be lost several times, but Christ is faithful above all! and he will keep me and I will rest in him. What a wonderful truth, I don't feel half as bad for this post now, God Bless you George.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[Winman]

Brother George

Thank you for that very instructive post. I read 5 of the links you posted at the bottom. I enjoyed the way you made a clear distinction between "believe" and "faith". That was excellent instruction that I will remember.

Now you are going to think I am picking on you, but in the 5th post at bottom you did something you criticized me for.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

I hope you understand I pointed that out in a lighthearted way.

But actually, I have a question for you. Do we have faith in the scriptures? I mean, we can actually hold the scriptures in our hands and see them with our eyes, so then according to the strict definition of faith, then can we only believe the scriptures and not have faith?

I hope I worded that right.

[Winman]

Brother George, I have another question, and I ask this in sincerety.

If faith is a gift we receive when we believe, then why did Jesus criticize Thomas for being faithless? And why did Jesus criticize his disciples for being of little faith?

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

If you do not give someone something they cannot possess unless you give it to them in the first place, then how can you criticize them for not having it?

[George]

Aloha brother CKG,

In regards to your Post #11:

Originally Posted by CKG

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul is making a contrast. There is something from God. It is a gift as opposed to something we work for. The gift is not faith because then the contrast wouldn't make sense. Whoever heard of working for faith? The gift is salvation, not faith."

"...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

I agree that Paul is making a contrast, but the contrast is between "Grace" and "Faith" (the ways & means of our Salvation) NOT between Grace and "Salvation" or Faith and "Salvation".

According to your interpretation (and possibly brother Winman's & others I'm sure):
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (salvation) not of yourselves: it (salvation) is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." [Ephesians 2:8 - 9]

I believe that the "THAT" and the "IT" in the verse must be in reference to either "Grace" or "Faith". We are saved BY "Grace" - THROUGH "Faith".

Another interpretation (that I have heard):
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (Grace) not of yourselves: it (Grace) is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." [Ephesians 2:8 - 9]

Brothers Rich, Monahan, Tony, myself and others believe:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (Faith) not of yourselves: it (Faith) is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." [Ephesians 2:8 - 9]

How do you explain the difference between Habakkuk 2:4 and Romans 1:17 & Galatians 3:11? Paul is QUOTING Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 - WHY did he LEAVE OUT the word "his" (under the "guidance" of the Holy Spirit)? I'm pretty sure you would agree that Paul wasn't mis-quoting Scripture; or that he made a mistake (he forgot "his"?) in Romans 1:17. Could it possibly be that in the Old Testament, an Old Testament saint lived "by his faith"? and the New Testament saint lives "by the faith of the son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."?

OLD TESTAMENT
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

NEW TESTAMENT
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. {What happened to "his"?}

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Your statement: "The gift is not faith because then the contrast wouldn't make sense. Whoever heard of working for faith? The gift is salvation, not faith." It may not "make sense" to you, but what difference does that make? There are quite a few places in the Scriptures which God hasn't given me "understanding" on, and when I arrive at those places I don't try "to make sense" of them with my limited understanding, I "study" the word and try to rightly divide" it - whether "it makes sense" to me or not. {And by the way, the Apostle Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, so it makes "perfect sense" to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works".}

By His grace God gives salvation. By faith we receive His gift of salvation. God offers it to all, but only those who by faith receive it are saved.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

You left out "BELIEF". BELIEF precedes "FAITH". NO BELIEF = NO "FAITH".

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The verse does NOT SAY: Romans 10:10 For with the heart man has FAITH unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

With all due respect brother, I believe that you are confusing "BELIEF" and "FAITH". Please check out brother Steve Rich's Posts and the links that I just gave to brother Winman in my Post #13.

No one is denying that salvation is a GIFT from God - What some of us are saying is: it's NOT THE ONLY "GIFT" that we have received from God!

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[Acts 8:20, 11:17; 1Corinthians 7:7, 12:28; Ephesians 3:7; 2Timothy 1:6; 1Peter 4:10]

[Winman]

Brother George

I should probably wait until you have a chance to answer one question before asking another, but this topic has raised a lot of questions for me. And the reason I ask you is that you have made such a detailed study of the subject. This question is from Mark chapter 11.

Mark 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city. 20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Now, I believe you have shown that faith is a gift, and I myself know of scripture that says the same. But in that light I do not understand Christ's command to the disciples in Mark 11:22. If we can only receive faith as a gift from God, then how could Jesus command his disciples to have faith?

And I have always believed that God never commands us to do something we cannot do.

I have further questions on this subject, but I will wait and give yourself and others time to respond before I ask further.

Thanks in advance, I am enjoying this study and find it very interesting.

[peopleoftheway]

Now, I believe you have shown that faith is a gift, and I myself know of scripture that says the same. But in that light I do not understand Christ's command to the disciples in Mark 11:22. If we can only receive faith as a gift from God, then how could Jesus command his disciples to have faith?

And I have always believed that God never commands us to do something we cannot do.

I have further questions on this subject, but I will wait and give yourself and others time to respond before I ask further.

Thanks in advance, I am enjoying this study and find it very interesting.

Hi Brother Winman

I know that your question was directed at George, but If I may answer you by no means in place of Brother George but of my own understanding of the scripture in light.

Mark 11:12-23 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. And when even was come, he went out of the city. And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

I believe that Christ here in this passage of scripture is saying have the "faith of God", no disciple could have stood there and said of his own accord "be thou removed" and had enough faith in himself to remove the mountain, but Christ in his example of the withering away of the fig tree by WORD, the power of God, shows them that if they just believe that God is Faithful enough to remove the mountain he will, to have the confidence in God and that things that "appear" very difficult are done with infinite ease by him.

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

[Winman]

POTW

Well, just to make certain everyone understands, I have always known that Jesus is the object of our faith. It is faith in God's faithfullness and abilities, none of ourselves. That I know.