Faith "Of" against Faith "In"

peopleoftheway · 04-26-2009, 05:05 PM

Just a quick reference here Brethren to 2 passages of scripture and the implications of changing "one" small word, that completely changes the doctrinal stance between the KJB and the niv.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Reading over this I know that I certainly wasn't justified of my own faith, my faith cant, nor couldn't save me, but Christs faith could! It was Christ's faith that led him Calvary to the Cross, it was Christ's faith that kept him on the Cross to die for this wretched sinner! And we are justified by that faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If I were to ask, and indeed if any of us were to ask a new Christian or indeed some who have been saved a while "What saved you?" Many will reply
"My faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at Calvary" of course I wouldn't hold that statement against their testimony but its isn't quite right

..even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law

Certainly we have faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work at Calvary, but IT WAS NOT our faith that saved us, it was Christ's! If we were to take our faith as to what justified us, then we would trust in ourselves and our faith for justification, and that's just not so

Now the reason for the post. Gal 2:16 in the niv reads as follows

Galatians 2:16 (New International Version)
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

CAN YOU SEE! how this simple change of 1 small two letter word can make such a massive impact on salvation, in the KJB knowing that we are no more justified by our faith than a cabbage is justified because its green, but we are justified by Christ's Faith gives us the powerful message that our salvation belongs to The Lord Jesus Christ and it cannot be lost, not only are we justified by his faith, we live by his faith.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for
me.

The NIV again changes the "Of" to "In"

Galatians 2:20 (New International Version)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Oh My Lord and Saviour, what have they done! they have taken your faith and made it their own.

Bringing this to light for several reasons

1. When you realize that it was not your faith but Christ's faith this should give you assurance of both your salvation and your security in your salvation. No more do you have to doubt your salvation because you didn't have enough faith to believe, for your faith had nothing to do with your justification. One would think that Christs faith was good enough for the work of justification.

2. For those Bible correctors who claim translations don't affect words that change doctrine, the small changes here can mean heaven or hell if anyone is trusting in their faith for justification and not Christ's.

3. That My Brothers and Sisters no longer doubt and have assurance of their salvation, and that we as Bible believers can see the vast difference a single two letter word can place on a believer, many modern version readers are relying on their faith, claiming that salvation can be lost or doubting it through lack of their own faith, through passages as quoted above if faith isn't kept, but they are trying to keep their own faith, not rest in Christs!

Finding this small difference certainly has edified me and I can now rest in Christs faith and in confidence in the Book I hold In my hand, I pray that you can too.

CKG · 04-26-2009, 06:55 PM

Personal faith, which we exercise, is to be distinguished from “the faith” which usually refers to truth or a body of truths, although personal faith is directed towards “the faith”. If you will look at verses in this light they will make a lot more sense. The idea that God or Jesus has to give us faith is probably rooted in Calvinism.

For example in Galatians 2:16 justification by the works of the law is contrasted with justification by the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ here refers to the body of truths concerning everything Jesus did to secure our justification (who He is, His sinless life, death on the cross and resurrection). It would make no sense to talk about Jesus’ faith. He doesn’t need faith.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Likewise in Galatians 2:20 we don’t live by Jesus’ faith (whatever that means) and He doesn’t mysteriously impart faith. Out faith grows by taking in the word of God. The life we now live in the flesh we live by the the faith of the Son of God. “The faith” here is the truths of what Jesus has done on the cross for us, what He did on the cross to us (see Romans 6, crucified with Him, dead to sin,...etc) and His life which is now resident in us by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I think the following are all of the passages in the New Testament containing the phrase “the faith”. This first group are verses where I believe the term “the faith” is referring to the body of truths concerning Jesus. There may be a couple of passages that are a little difficult to ascertain whether or not it is personal faith or faith as truth.

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 13:8
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations

1 Corinthians 16:13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 3
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

1 Timothy 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Timothy 3:9
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 6:21
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

2 Timothy 3:8
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 3:15
All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen.

James 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

1 Peter 5:9
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

In the context I believe the faith of God here refers to the truths concerning God’s plans for the Jews.

Romans 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

These two verses seem to contain references to both personal faith and faith as referring to a body of truths.

Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Acts 3:16
And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

I believe in the following verses, “the faith” is referring to personal faith, although the first one (Acts 24:24) could go either way.

Acts 24:24
And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Revelation 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

peopleoftheway · 04-27-2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Personal faith, which we exercise, is to be distinguished from “the faith” which usually refers to truth or a body of truths, although personal faith is directed towards “the faith”. If you will look at verses in this light they will make a lot more sense. The idea that God or Jesus has to give us faith is probably rooted in Calvinism.

You have not read my point correctly, I never said that Jesus has to give us faith but it is not our faith that saves us, its Christ's. I am certainly not a calvinist and never will be. My point is that when our faith lessens, when those who fall away from the faith or are weakened in the faith, they are not losing their salvation for it is God's faith that keeps them

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Anyway I know what I meant, and apparently it hasn't come across that way and I haven't explained it very well, I certainly don't want to be called a calvinist over this post or appear that way.

Brandon please delete this post

Winman · 04-27-2009, 09:05 AM

I am certainly not a scholar on these things, but I believe every person has the ability to have faith in Christ. I believe faith is a personal choice and under the control of every individual.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

It is clear here that Israel could have believed on Christ if they so chose to do. And many in fact did, all of the first believers were Jews. But the majority did not. Notice that failing to believe is termed as disobediant (vs 16, 21). So clearly it is a personal choice.

Faith simply means to trust, depend upon, rely upon, lean upon, look to, call upon, wait on or upon, etc... We exercise faith daily. Everytime you drive your car you trust the brakes to safely stop your vehicle. When you buy a can of soup at the grocery you are trusting the product inside to be safe. Faith is not some mystical thing, it is something we all express everyday.

We derive our faith in Christ from God's Word. If not for the scriptures, we would not know of Jesus that he is God's Son, that he died for our sins, and rose from the dead. This is why Rom 10:14 says;

"and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

tonybones2112 · 04-27-2009, 10:44 AM

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;(NKJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.(KJV)

Friends, I hear so many people preach about "the gift of grace", "grace as a gift". I usually stop clocks with some of my expositions of Scripture, but as I understand it grace, by virtue of it being grace, is a gift itself; the gift of Ephesians 2 is the faith.

Without the faith Christ had in John 17, the faith He had on the cross, I don't have faith to get me across the street. That faith He breathed into me by His Spirit in me and the Scriptures, and if someone says I don;t have the holy Scriptures, they best get up early and pack lunch proving that to me.

First part of this message is the NKJV corruption of these verses and this doctrine.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

peopleoftheway · 04-27-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Without the faith Christ had in John 17, the faith He had on the cross, I don't have faith to get me across the street. That faith He breathed into me by His Spirit in me and the Scriptures, and if someone says I don;t have the holy Scriptures, they best get up early and pack lunch proving that to me.

This was my point Brother Tony, the faith that Christ had to endure the cross and die for me is what justifies me. I think I may have worded this post all wrong. We are not kept by our own faith, if that's the case I have been lost a long time ago, it is By Christ's faith that I know my salvation is true and secure.

CKG · 04-27-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

I am certainly not a calvinist and never will be.

Brandon please delete this post

I should’ve worded my post better. I did not mean to imply that you are a Calvinist.
Reformed theology appeals to the intellectual and has through the years made inroads to Bible colleges and Seminaries so that most systematic theology courses are reformed in nature even though that college or Seminary may not be. As a result I’ve heard many a preacher and Bible teacher say things that come from a Reformed perspective even though I know that person is not Reformed. Everyone; even lost people have faith. People put faith in religion, science, government, medicine…etc and there’s nothing necessarily wrong with trusting in some of these areas, but none of them will save you and make you right with God. We’re saved by believing on the Lord Jesus and what He did on the cross presented in His word. Our faith is in the facts of the word of God. Now that we’re saved we live by the faith of the Son of God. It doesn’t say we live by His faith, but by the faith of Him. “The faith” in the context of Galatians 2:20 is the beliefs, body of truths, facts of not just what He did on the cross for us, but what He did to us (see Romans 6 – crucified, buried, risen with Him and now dead to sin). We lived based on these facts of His word. When Jude exhorts us to contend for the faith he is not talking about personal faith that we exercise, but the faith, meaning our beliefs (as presented in God’s word). Again I did not mean to imply that you are a Calvinist.

George · 04-27-2009, 11:11 AM

Aloha brother CKG,

Please explain - WHAT IS THE GIFT OF GOD in these verses?

Quote:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Please Notice: The "GIFT" is described as being BY Grace - It is not said to be the "GIFT" OF GRACE.

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Back in 03-04-2008 Forum member Stvvv1611 (Steven Rich) started posting on this very subject (actually the issue began about the "difference" between Old Testament Salvation and New Testament Salvation, but it soon developed into an exposition on the "difference" between the "faith" of those saints before the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and the "faith" of the saints after Christ's sacrifice and resurrection.) That is the "difference" between:

OLD TESTAMENT
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

NEW TESTAMENT
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. {What happened to "his"?}

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Brother Steven made 9 posts (a total of 33 type written pages) most of which are applicable to this issue. I very seldom recommend men's works, however, in this case, brother Steven Rich's "commentary" is far better than anything I might be able to put together, and so I ask you (and anyone else interested) to check out the following links to his articles:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=58
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=97
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=126
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=130
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=137
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=264
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=265
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=273
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=275

This issue is one of those "strong meat" [Hebrews 5:12-14] matters in Scripture (certainly not "milk") that cannot be "settled" by a cursory examination of the Scriptures; or by our personal "opinions" and/or "feelings" about the issue.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

These matters are "the deep things of God" [1Corinthians 2:10], and as such - are spiritually discerned. There is no need to "surmise" that: "The idea that God or Jesus has to give us faith is probably rooted in Calvinism." In Ephesians 2:8 either GRACE is the "GIFT" or FAITH is - it must be ONE or the OTHER. HOW a brother in Christ perceives or understands this verse will determine WHERE he ends up on this issue. Brother Steven Rich has written 33 pages supporting brother Steven Monahan's (peopleoftheway) position; and so there is plenty of Scriptural support for brother Monahan's belief, and as you have demonstrated, there is at least some support for yours.

I am too busy (working on another issue) to engage you (or anyone else) on this issue at this time, except to say that - a fellow brother in Christ does NOT have to be a Calvinist in order to believe what brother "peopleoftheway" has presented. I know of several good Christian friends of mine (who are "moderate" dispensationalists) that believe much like brother "peopleoftheway" (Steven Monahan) and brother Steven Rich believe, and who definitely are NOT Calvinists..

Please read ALL of the articles by Steven Rich, and if you do reply to this Post - please have the courtesy to answer the question I posed at the beginning of this Post.

CKG · 04-27-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Without the faith Christ had in John 17, the faith He had on the cross, I don't have faith to get me across the street. That faith He breathed into me by His Spirit in me and the Scriptures, and if someone says I don;t have the holy Scriptures, they best get up early and pack lunch proving that to me. Tony

That makes absolutely no sense. When I got saved my sins were washed away, Jesus' righteousness was imputed to me, I was crucified, buried, and raised with Christ and I am now dead to sin, God's Holy Spirit has now indwelt and sealed me unto the day of redemption so that He is personally with me everywhere I go and in everything I do and its all by His grace, but I had to personally by faith believe the facts of His Word. These facts are the faith we are to earnestly contend for.

Winman · 11:36 AM

Boy, I'm getting a little confused, or perhaps I am not understanding everyone.

#1 We know that God is not willing that any should perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And it is clear that everybody has the personal choice to accept or refuse Christ.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If saving faith is a gift of God, then those who are lost did not receive this saving faith from God. This makes God partial.

In Ephesians 2, grace is the topic, not faith.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have heard it said that grace and mercy are opposites. Grace is God giving us something we do not deserve, while mercy is God not giving us something we deserve.

I tie the phrase "it is the gift of God" to "For by grace" in Eph 2:8, not to "through faith".

This is why God calls those who fail to believe disobediant.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding those here. If saving faith is a gift from God, then one can only conclude that those who are lost did not receive this gift from God.

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