[chette777]

Just some thoughts on Revelation 20 -22 and other misc scriptures that make up some of our theology

In doing some study of events in the last chapters of Revelation. I came across some things that made me think deeply, for example. In Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Here we are told that all the dead are judged. First it doesn’t say anywhere that any living person is judged only the dead. By the context it is not the dead spiritually but the dead physically that are judged because there is a resurrection of bodies vs5. I have read many commentators who say these are spiritually dead persons who are judged but that goes against the plain English text. Even the every man in vs13 is reference to those dead who had been brought up from the sea and from death and hell which are all places that the dead people are placed. So all the dead are judged and cast into the lake of fire along with death and hell.

Then in Chapter 21 tells us a new earth and new heaven are recreated without any sea. Then we are told about this glorious city that appears and comes down from heaven. In time line this would be after the Judgement of the dead.. For the old heaven and earth are said to have fled from his face 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Then in 21:1 we see the new heaven and earth come into view after the old had been passed away. In context we can assume that this passing away took place from the time the great white throne was seen and judgement commenced unto the time the new heaven is seen.

Interesting enough we see in verse 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Now these in chapter 21:8 are clearly living because the context of the previous verses would let us know that some overcame and some did not. Those that did not do not inherit all things. But were judged by their hearts by the Alpha and Omega, and by no books and were sentenced to have their part in the lake that burneth with fire. Here is the living lost or spiritually dead after the Millennial Kingdom. Their judgement is quick and decisive

Then as we move on in chapter 21 we are told of a city that is AS A Bride not the bride. Again many make this city to be Church Age Saints but this can’t be. Again we are really never said to the the Bride of the Lamb or a bride at all in any NT books of Paul. Paul only said, For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Cor 11:2. Now the word espoused of which Paul spoke are figurative of the Corinthian believers being brought to the knowledge of Salvation in Christ through his ministry.

Then in Rev 21:9 the angel tell John he will show him the Lamb’s wife which is the city. So in the context and giving heed to the words of the prophets and of the Apostles of Jesus Christ vs 19:7 is the New Jerusalem that was made ready, not the Body of Christ being made ready. We were already made complete in Christ the day we believe. The gathering of Church Age Saints and their Judgement seat of Christ may be the final piece to our completed glory. But it is not us being made ready we are already ready in Christ.

Again in the context of 19:7 is, And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. This cannot be the body of Christ for we are clothed in his righteousness Roms 4:23, 24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; we are imputed with his righteousness we will not be covered in the righteousness of saints for we are covered with his that is the Lamb’s righteousness.

Ok let’s move on. Here we see it is a literal city that can be entered into. But it can only be entered into by those who are written in the Lambs book of life Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. The difference between the those written in the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are clear. Those written in the book of life of 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire it would seem live forever. (But we are not told if any of the dead that were resurrected did). And those written in the Lamb’s book of life are allowed to enter the glorious city. so the Book of life in Rev 20 and the Lamb's book of life are not the same books. for one judges dead and the other gives authorization to enter a city,

Now this city is just so big. It is very large but it is not the vastness of heaven it covers anywhere from 1200 sq miles to 2000 sq miles. This city is not equal to heaven for the heaven is an incalculable measure. And this city sets upon the earth. So we are not talking about people entering Heaven we are talking about people entering a city only. This city is located in the heaven but it is not heaven. God is there but God is everywhere and so is the lamb. This is supposed to be the Eternal Kingdom upon the new earth and it would seem that this was Gods plan all along. It would seem that from before the recreation of the Earth this has been the mind of God to have this glorious city upon the earth where the temple would be and the throne of the Lamb would set.

It would seem though that some of the theology we have been taught about the Body of Christ and the New Jerusalem may not be accurate. It would seem that we forget some of Paul’s teaching when we get to Revelation. The root of this seems to be in the fact that some would replace Israel with the Body of Christ. A doctrine of the Nicolaitians to say the least.

Any comments are welcome any further enlightenment would be appreciated as I have only marked these as things that make for deep thinking. So any and all constructive comments are welcome.

[stephanos]

I haven't done a thorough study of Revelation. What I know is mainly what I learned by watching Ruckman's chalk talks on this subject. So bear with me...

Originally Posted by chette777

Just some thoughts on Revelation 20 -22 and other misc scriptures that make up some of our theology

In doing some study of events in the last chapters of Revelation. I came across some things that made me think deeply, for example. In Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Here we are told that all the dead are judged. First it doesn’t say anywhere that any living person is judged only the dead. By the context it is not the dead spiritually but the dead physically that are judged because there is a resurrection of bodies vs5. I have read many commentators who say these are spiritually dead persons who are judged but that goes against the plain English text. Even the every man in vs13 is reference to those dead who had been brought up from the sea and from death and hell which are all places that the dead people are placed. So all the dead are judged and cast into the lake of fire along with death and hell.

Then in Chapter 21 tells us a new earth and new heaven are recreated without any sea. Then we are told about this glorious city that appears and comes down from heaven. In time line this would be after the Judgement of the dead.. For the old heaven and earth are said to have fled from his face 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Then in 21:1 we see the new heaven and earth come into view after the old had been passed away. In context we can assume that this passing away took place from the time the great white throne was seen and judgement commenced unto the time the new heaven is seen.

Interesting enough we see in verse 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Now these in chapter 21:8 are clearly living because the context of the previous verses would let us know that some overcame and some did not. Those that did not do not inherit all things. But were judged by their hearts by the Alpha and Omega, and by no books and were sentenced to have their part in the lake that burneth with fire. Here is the living lost or spiritually dead after the Millennial Kingdom. Their judgement is quick and decisive

Then as we move on in chapter 21 we are told of a city that is AS A Bride not the bride. Again many make this city to be Church Age Saints but this can’t be. Again we are really never said to the the Bride of the Lamb or a bride at all in any NT books of Paul. Paul only said, For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Cor 11:2. Now the word espoused of which Paul spoke are figurative of the Corinthian believers being brought to the knowledge of Salvation in Christ through his ministry.

Then in Rev 21:9 the angel tell John he will show him the Lamb’s wife which is the city. So in the context and giving heed to the words of the prophets and of the Apostles of Jesus Christ vs 19:7 is the New Jerusalem that was made ready, not the Body of Christ being made ready. We were already made complete in Christ the day we believe. The gathering of Church Age Saints and their Judgement seat of Christ may be the final piece to our completed glory. But it is not us being made ready we are already ready in Christ.

No I don't think we are ready. We are making ourselves ready right now by doing works which warrant rewards and crowns. Not only that, but we are in a corruptable body, which shall put on an incorruptable one. So yeah we're ready if you want to claim our salvation as being ready, but the Bible is clear that there is more that Christ's Bride can do to make herself ready while He tarries.

Again in the context of 19:7 is, And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. This cannot be the body of Christ for we are clothed in his righteousness Roms 4:23, 24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; we are imputed with his righteousness we will not be covered in the righteousness of saints for we are covered with his that is the Lamb’s righteousness.

Perhaps verse 7 is saying that the garment of fine white line which is given us is our righteousness because it is His righteousness which is given us and which we adorn ourselves with. The reason I say this is because it says that the linen garment is the righteousness, not the saints.

Ok let’s move on. Here we see it is a literal city that can be entered into. But it can only be entered into by those who are written in the Lambs book of life Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. The difference between the those written in the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are clear. Those written in the book of life of 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire it would seem live forever. (But we are not told if any of the dead that were resurrected did). And those written in the Lamb’s book of life are allowed to enter the glorious city. so the Book of life in Rev 20 and the Lamb's book of life are not the same books. for one judges dead and the other gives authorization to enter a city,

Now this city is just so big. It is very large but it is not the vastness of heaven it covers anywhere from 1200 sq miles to 2000 sq miles. This city is not equal to heaven for the heaven is an incalculable measure. And this city sets upon the earth. So we are not talking about people entering Heaven we are talking about people entering a city only. This city is located in the heaven but it is not heaven. God is there but God is everywhere and so is the lamb. This is supposed to be the Eternal Kingdom upon the new earth and it would seem that this was Gods plan all along. It would seem that from before the recreation of the Earth this has been the mind of God to have this glorious city upon the earth where the temple would be and the throne of the Lamb would set.

I've yet to see a single verse in the Bible that gives credit to this recreation "theory". That being said, it is clear that God's purpose has always been to establish Himself as King on a throne in a Kingdom where He would rule as absolute authority. (hint hint, there's 4 books in the Bible called the books of the Kings ^_^)

It would seem though that some of the theology we have been taught about the Body of Christ and the New Jerusalem may not be accurate. It would seem that we forget some of Paul’s teaching when we get to Revelation. The root of this seems to be in the fact that some would replace Israel with the Body of Christ. A doctrine of the Nicolaitians to say the least.

Any comments are welcome any further enlightenment would be appreciated as I have only marked these as things that make for deep thinking. So any and all constructive comments are welcome.

The sermons and comments I've read of late have been given by dispensational Bible believers, and I have not gotten any sort of impression that they've been corrupted by any sort of replacement theology.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by stephanos

No I don't think we are ready. We are making ourselves ready right now by doing works which warrant rewards and crowns. Not only that, but we are in a corruptable body, which shall put on an incorruptable one. So yeah we're ready if you want to claim our salvation as being ready, but the Bible is clear that there is more that Christ's Bride can do to make herself ready while He tarries.

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Obviously this is a big "proof text" of Calvinists, so it takes a little explanation. If God did "foreknow" you, that simply means that He knew that you would be saved (this does NOT negate man's Free Will, it just means that God already knew; God is not willing that any should perish, etc.). Those that He knew would be saved, He "predestinated," not to be saved, but to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE (The Sure Word of Prophecy, Dr. Ruckman) of His SON. A Christian is predestined to be conformed to His image: that is our final state. At that point, we ARE complete; right now we are not. So I agree with you Stephen: we are still preparing (Matt. 25).

Originally Posted by stephanos

Perhaps verse 7 is saying that the garment of fine white line which is given us is our righteousness because it is His righteousness which is given us and which we adorn ourselves with. The reason I say this is because it says that the linen garment is the righteousness, not the saints.

The reasons that chette777 gave are a little too flimsy for me; no, we are not clothed in our own Righteousness but in His. At the same time, we are washed in His blood and Sanctified and Justified by His finished work. Justification is a declaration of righteousness: we are Justified because Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for our sins!

Originally Posted by stephanos

I've yet to see a single verse in the Bible that gives credit to this recreation "theory". That being said, it is clear that God's purpose has always been to establish Himself as King on a throne in a Kingdom where He would rule as absolute authority. (hint hint, there's 4 books in the Bible called the books of the Kings ^_^)

I do believe that he is speaking of the pre-Ademic earth; while you don't have to believe that to understand what he's talking about, I would suggest (again) that you get a copy of Doc's "The Sure Word of Prophecy, otherwise known as The Kingdom of Heaven vs. The Kingdom of God." This book gives a firm foundation for understanding God's eternal plan through the Ages, starting with King Lucifer, then King Adam, Noah, the plan for the Jewish kings and ending with Adam II, Jesus Christ. Of course it's kinda' a whiplash journey, thanks to man's unfailing ability to fail, being that there's two Kingdoms involved and over 6,000 years of recorded history to discuss.

[chette777]

Now I don't disagree with what any of you share. I am just looking at the words and thinking deeply on these things especially the books and the Lamb's book.

I know I didn't quote a whole lot of scriputre. But it does say in a twinkling of an eye the corrupt will put on corruption and the mortal immortality. It wouldn't take seven years plus a millennium to make ourselves ready and present ourselves as a city bride to the Lamb.

I don't think the rewards are garments nor are they given to make ourselves ready. those are the things given from the master to the servant as a matter of the servants good stewardship. when that takes place we are already perfected in glory.

I realize the words don't say the righteousness of the Saints but the "rightiousness of Saints". still I think this would imply that "the rightiousness of saints" is Jewish saints not Church Age saints, and their righteousness is part of their slavation in the tribulation acording to 2Peter 3:14 be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. By the time of Rev 19 we are already with Christ and finished at the judgement seat of Christ, and returning with him when he comes agaist them in the very next chapter.

Thanks for the insitghts keep them coming

[MC1171611]

One thing that a former pastor pointed out about the book of Revelation is that like the Gospels, Revelation goes through the Tribulation period four different times. Of course this is up for debate, but it's something to think about.

As far as the Bride of Christ goes: in Heaven, we are not bound by time like they will be here on earth; we will have the Judgment Seat of Christ which will take eons of time if done one-by-one, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Bride always means the Church, Lamb is always Jesus Christ, etc.) before coming back with Christ at Armageddon. Basically this could all be going on for a thousand earth years during the Tribulation and only encompassing the seven years of the actual Tribulation.

Again, just something to think about.

[chette777]

Yeah I have considered the four times through senario. it can be looked at that way and possibly should. I doubt it would take eons for the bodyof Christ to have its judgement. God can do it all at once for everyone at the same time. so how long would it take for one 20min, 30min maybe 45min. that is all it would take based on who and what God's is.

I think we may want to place the Body of Christ in the book of Revelation. but it is not there. it becomes a mystery again in the Tribulational books just as it was before Paul. the focus is Israel and Israel is called a wife, Isa 54:6 speaking of Israel just to mention one. and others that show her like a bride in Isa and a wife throughout Hosea.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

One thing that a former pastor pointed out about the book of Revelation is that like the Gospels, Revelation goes through the Tribulation period four different times. Of course this is up for debate, but it's something to think about.

I found it fascinating when I learned this. In Dr Ruckman's commentary on Revelation he says the following:

"The Book of Revelation takes us clear through the Tribulation FOUR times and gives FOUR accounts of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, exactly as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John give us FOUR accounts of the first coming of Christ to this earth.

1st account of Tribulation = chapters 5-6
Chapter 7 is parenthetical
2nd account of Tribulation = chapters 8-11 ending in Rev 11:15
Chapter 10 is a parenthesis
3rd account of Tribulation = chapters 12-14 ending in Rev 14:20
4th account of Tribulation = chapters 15-19

Each account through the Tribulation the emphasis is put on a different thing, Rev 5-6 takes us through the seals, Rev 8-11 takes us through the trumpets, Rev 12-14 takes us through the activites of the Antichrist, Rev 15-19 takes us through the seven vials and destruction of Babylon the Great."

[Kiwi Christian]

Thanks for your thoughts and this discussion. This is one of my favourite and most exciting topics in scripture.

Originally Posted by chette777

Then in Chapter 21 tells us a new earth and new heaven are recreated without any sea.

You mention "recreation" a couple of times during your thoughts here, I wonder why? Rev 21:1 says the first heaven and earth were "passed away" not recreated, they are replaced by a "new" set, and Rev 21:5 says "I make all things new", so I believe it is a fresh new creation, not a recreation of the existing elements.

Originally Posted by chette777

Then as we move on in chapter 21 we are told of a city that is AS A Bride not the bride. Again many make this city to be Church Age Saints but this can’t be.

Yes, "as" here in Rev 21:2 is clear typology, but seven verses later in Vs.9 it does say "the bride, the Lamb's wife", who I believe is us, the church.

Originally Posted by chette777

Again we are really never said to the the Bride of the Lamb or a bride at all in any NT books of Paul. Paul only said, For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Cor 11:2. Now the word espoused of which Paul spoke are figurative of the Corinthian believers being brought to the knowledge of Salvation in Christ through his ministry.

This is surprising to read, for here you depart doctrinally from every other Bible believer I know. To me, the passage in 2 Cor 11:2 clearly says that Paul had espoused (meaning engaged) those Corinthian believers to "one husband", as a chaste virgin to Christ. Scripture with scripture, this compliments the verses in Ephesians 5:23-32 which teach us the mystery that the church is the wife (to be) of Christ, you just can't miss the typology here - "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it."

And that isn't all, Paul also said:

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In the OT Israel is said to be the wife of Jehovah, God the Father, whom He divorced (Jeremiah 3:8), and in the NT the church is the wife of Jesus Christ, God the Son.

Originally Posted by chette777

Now this city is just so big. It is very large but it is not the vastness of heaven it covers anywhere from 1200 sq miles to 2000 sq miles. This city is not equal to heaven for the heaven is an incalculable measure. And this city sets upon the earth.

Brother, where does it say it sets upon the earth?

I believe this great city, New Jerusalem, is the place Jesus was talking about when he said "I go to prepare a place for you", I believe there will be a mansion for each of us there, and by the specifications given in Rev 21:16 there will be plenty of room for such magnificent buildings. This is the eternal dwelling place for the body of Christ, and there is much speculation as to where exactly it will be located in the new heaven and earth, all we are told in Rev 21:10 is that it "descends out of heaven".

[stephanos]

Amen Kiwi. Good stuff. Keep it coming!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

Rev.9, 10 I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, by and according to the context of these scriptures the Bride is a City, not Church Age Saints.

If you get a chance read some of James Knox stuff if you think I have deviated from main line Christian theology you will really love his stuff. he is a despensationalist but doesn't agreee with any of Ruckmans stuff or others for that matter. But he is true to sticking with the KJV. Remember mainline Christians theology is made by scholars