[stephanos]

My Mennonite friend is trying to convert me away from the things I'm learning in regards to right dividing. I've done a fairly good job answering his emails, which have focused mostly on the Kingdom. He is typical in wanting to spiritualize this doctrine, and make Christians this Kingdom. Here is what he wrote:

The crucial issue to consider here is: When Jesus preached the Kingdom
of God, did He have in mind an earthly kingdom, or the church?

During His ministry, He refused to be made a king (Jn. 6 :15) or even
a judge (Lk 12:14). He acknowledged to Pilate that He is the King of
the Jews, but explained that His kingdom is a different kind than
Pilate and the Jews thought—not a worldly kingdom that could be
established by warfare (Jn 18:36, 37).

If Jesus had established an earthly kingdom at His first coming, He
would not have been crucified, and there would be no adequate
sacrifice to take away sin. His death was essential not only to the
Gospel of Grace but to salvation under the Law as well, because the
sacrifices only covered sin until it could be taken away (although the
Jews did not understand that). The Jews thought that it would be great
if the Messiah set up an earthly kingdom and threw off Roman
oppression. But Jesus knew that to do it would actually thwart His
greater plan of salvation.

The church is sometimes called a kingdom. Colossians 1:13 is one
example that is clearly present; we are _currently_ part of Jesus'
kingdom. Some of the references to the Kingdom have a future reference
(eternal or millennial), but I believe that most refer to the church.

The Sermon on the Mount, which dispensationalists would say belongs
with the Kingdom (i.e. Jesus' earthly reign) is probably the part of
the Bible that fits the least with the idea of God's people as an
earthly nation. Jesus' teaching on loving our enemies and so forth
would not work in an earthly kingdom—just as it would not work in an
Old Testament context. It belongs in a dispensation of grace, because
it teaches us to relate to others on the basis of grace. Although the
word "grace" is seldom used in the Gospels, the concept is all through
them. It is not something that Paul introduced.

If Jesus was offering a literal kingdom, available immediately, why
didn't He bring it when the people wanted it?

If the Kingdom does not exist yet, why did Paul speak of it as a
present reality (Col. 1:13)? If the kingdom is only for Israel, why
were the Colossian gentiles part of it?

How do I show him that the Kingdom was indeed offered to Israel, and that they rejected it. I think that if I am going to be able to rightly divide (or anyone) then this must be crystal clear. I am only about halfway through "One Book Rightly Divided" and am beginning to think I should have held off mentioning that I'm studying Right Dividing until my studies are further along, but never the less I did mention it, and I think my discussion with my friend hinges on this one key doctrine.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[Biblestudent]

Stephen,
Maybe, reading Stephen's preaching (Acts 7) will be one help!

He deals with Israel's rejection of the Messiah, since the "fathers" to the apostles. Then you may read Romans 9-11 where Paul deals with God setting aside Israel due to their rejection of Him.

Biblestudent

[Luke]

"If Jesus had established an earthly kingdom at His first coming, He
would not have been crucified, and there would be no adequate
sacrifice to take away sin."

This is where covenant theologists go wrong as well. Paul Washer makes this mistake in his sermon where he rags on dispensationalists. Jesus Christ had to die. He said He would.

Israel had a complete opportunity to accept the Kingdom. Now, this is conjecture, and I would not form a doctrine about it, but it's entirely logical. When Pilate crucified Jesus, he wrote "Jesus the King of the Jews" and said "what I have written, I have written".

If the Jews had said "we have no King but Jesus" right there is an insurrection, and the Romans would have crucified Christ (he went willingly). He would have risen from the dead, and the Millennial Kingdom would have begun (no need for a tribulation if the Jews accept the saviour). However, God, in His sovereignty and foreknowledge, knew what was going to happen, so in one sense, while this was a possibility, it was also an impossibility, because God already knew what would happen.

Here is the amazing thing. God knows the future right? But we have free will. So "in time", we have choices, however, outside of time, all things have already happened, are happening and will happen. So Israel truly had a choice to accept the Kingdom, and had they done so, things would have turned out differently (the church was never prophesied in the OT - it was prophesied that the gentiles will come to God as well, which will also happen in the MK). But in giving Israel the choice, God already knows their decision, and gives prophetic words to His prophets, because He is ALL POWERFUL, and knows everything before it happens.

EDIT: I need to stop posting stuff like this - it may be evident (well, I saw it just then) that while I may believe this, I didn't post any scripture. I need to get back to the Bible when posting. God bless (and thank God for showing me that).

[Josh]

I agree with your friend. I'd never heard of what is commoly taught on here until I saw this site.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by stephanos' friend

If Jesus was offering a literal kingdom, available immediately, why didn't He bring it when the people wanted it?

Matt. 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

You get the idea. Furthermore, what he refers to here is not how God planned for the "crowning" of Israel's King to go down.

John 6:15
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Originally Posted by stephanos' friend

His kingdom is a different kind than Pilate and the Jews thought—not a worldly kingdom that could be established by warfare (Jn 18:36, 37).

Oops! He missed a word when he read that verse.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Yes, it will be a "worldly kingdom...established by warfare" - no doubt about that! see Zech. 14:1-9

Originally Posted by stephanos' friend

If the Kingdom does not exist yet, why did Paul speak of it as a present reality (Col. 1:13)? If the kingdom is only for Israel, why were the Colossian gentiles part of it?

Wrong kingdom. Understanding the "kingdoms" is a must in understanding the "deeper things" of the Bible. Your friend is in error in his perception of "The Kingdom of God" (to quote him). This misunderstanding only leads to another and so on. That's why this stuff is so important.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Wrong kingdom. Understanding the "kingdoms" is a must in understanding the "deeper things" of the Bible.

Hey Brother. If you are led by God the Holy Spirit, would you be obedient and kind enough to expound on this doctrine?

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS:

I want to understand the "deeper things" of the Bible and know that God uses others to help us grow.

[pbiwolski]

Forrest

I believe your intentions are good, and were good when you started a thread on the above mentioned kingdoms. However, I doubt that this can be (or should I say "will be") properly discussed without the eventual trainwreck ending in a "lock down."

But to answer your question in a word...

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS: Spiritual

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS: Physical

Here, I just found this and it looks pretty good. As always, it'll be subject to someone's disgruntled opinion!

http://www.kjvbible.org/thekingdoms.html

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

http://www.kjvbible.org/thekingdoms.html

Thanks for the link. I've read the article and it seems to provide some really good, clear, and reasonable instruction. I'll need to continue reading the scripture and praying, however, before I'll be bold and confident enough to say I get it.

Thanks again, brother.

[Kiwi Christian]

This is only an excerpt of a larger presentation I have, hope this helps clarify some things:

Just as there are 3 Heavens, there are 3 kingdoms.
Just as there are 3 persons in the Godhead, there are 3 kingdoms (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Just as there are 3 parts of our being (body, soul, spirit), there are 3 kingdoms
Just as God views 3 classes of people (Jew, Gentile, Church) there are 3 kingdoms.

The Kingdom of God
The Kingdom of Heaven
The Kingdoms of the world



Christ’s Dual Message
To Jews:
Repent
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt 4:17

To Gentiles:
Believe the Gospel
“…Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Mark 1:14-15

The Rejected Kingdom:
“but NOW is my kingdom not from hence…” John. 18:36
“We have no king but Caesar” John 19:15
“Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6-8
“I see…the Son of man standing… Then they cried… and stopped their ears…” Acts 7:56-57
“…the Jews…filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming… lo, we turn to the Gentiles” Acts 13:45-49

Do Versus Done:
Kingdom of Heaven
Sermon on the Mount- Blessed are they that do…or don’t do…etc…Matt 5-7
“…he that DOETH…” Matt 7:21

Kingdom of God
“…not of works…” Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5
“we are HIS workmanship” Eph 2:10
“ye are God’s husbandry, ye are his building” 1 Cor 3:9
“ye are complete IN him” Col 2:10
Live by faith OF Son of God Gal 2:20

Kingdoms of the world
These are the kingdoms of a sin-cursed and fallen world. Rom 8:22
This sin curse will be lifted in the millennium.
These kingdoms are run spiritually and influenced physically by Satan (god of this world, prince of the power of the air) and his fallen “host of heaven”
These are the kingdoms that Satan offered Christ which are of no interest to Him in their present state. Matt 4:8; Luke 4:5
Christ will reign over these kingdoms AFTER He has judged the world and bound Satan Rev. 11:15

Bible Believers Baptist Church
- Pastor Thomas Mowery

[stephanos]

Thank you all. This is all good stuff. I've been thinking about sending him a copy of brother Peter Ruckman's book, "The Sure Word of Prophecy" (otherwise called The Kingdom of God versus the Kingdom of Heaven). Do anyone of you know of this book? Would it be a good one to send to my Mennonite brother?

Peace and Love,
Stephen