Here is a question to Kick around. Does the Holy Spirit Draw all Men?

Yes, not to salvation - but through the Gospel, drawn to Jesus.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Yes, not to salvation - but through the Gospel, drawn to Jesus.

Wow Jerry, that was a confusing start.

Ploughboy

Glad to be of help.

Calvinists teach that John 6:44 means that God chose whom He would draw to salvation - ie. He drew only those who would be saved.

Whereas the Bible teaches He draws everyone to Him through the hearing of the Gospel - that means that not all are saved, but that all are being drawn to some extent.

Yes, not to salvation - but through the Gospel, drawn to Jesus.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jerry, If they are drawn to Jesus and He will raise them up at the last day, is not this being drawn to salvation?

Whereas the Bible teaches He draws everyone to Him through the hearing of the Gospel - that means that not all are saved, but that all are being drawn to some extent

Just read the next verse, John 6:45. This is how God draws men Calvinist love John 6:44, but never read the next verse, How God draws men.

"It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."John 6:45



Ploughboy

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This verse is pretty clear - God draws all men through the Gospel - therefore we know that this drawing is not necessarily to salvation. Not everyone is being saved - but everyone has the opportunity to be.

all doesn't mean all without exception or [ all inclusive ] all the time .
sometimes it means all in a certain group or catagory .
to take all at its primary meaning would contradict other scripture therefore it must be the secondary meaning of all in a certain group or catagory ,
kinda like a conductor on a train saying all aboard , does he mean everybody without exception or all that have a ticket?
jim

Maybe it does mean all. Jesus is saying that through His death on the cross, all the world will have the opportunity to be saved. I would say that means all.

how can all the world have an opportunity if we are chosen before the foundation of the world , and Before jacob and esau were born God loved one and hated another not having done any good or evil ?
if we all had the opportunity to be saved by our belief wouldn't that be by the righteousness of two ?
jim

Context is VERY important. That statement was made over 1000 years after both of them died. It was referring to who God would use and whom He chose to be in the line of Christ - it had nothing to do with their salvation or lack of it. It doesn't anywhere indicate He chose them to be saved or lost. God chose to put His blessings on Jacob and his line before Jacob was born.

God chose those in Christ before the foundation of the world. Other passages indicate He chose them based on His foreknowledge - of what? Of what they would do with Jesus/the Gospel. Those in Christ - those who would respond - had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and were chosen by God - then He predestined them to an inheritance, to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be glorified, etc.

if we all had the opportunity to be saved by our belief wouldn't that be by the righteousness of two ?

? None of us are saved by our own righteousness - so I am unsure what you are stating here. Grace is God's unmerited favour - none of us are good enough to be saved, to earn it or merit it - so we need God's grace to save us. The medium of our salvation is our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When we place our faith in Him alone, He saves us, makes us new creatures, adopts us as His children, etc.