[JOHN G]

Hello all. I need some guidance on a tract issue. I really like the million dollar bill and curved allusion tracts distibuted by Ray Comfort and Way of the Master / Living Waters. However, as of late (as I am hopefully growing in the Lord) ,the defining of repentance on the tract has bothered me. Here lately, I usually have been marking out the part in parenthesis after repent on the second card. I also have wrote "KJV" by the read your bible part. Here is the text of the curved allusion cards.

CARD ONE: Hold both cards curving toward the right. Which is bigger, the pink or the blue? Both are the same size. Our eyes are often fooled by optical illusions. Speaking of eyes -- imagine you were offered $1 million for one of your eyes for a transplant. It could be taken out painlessly, and you'd be given a new glass eye that will look as good as your other eye, but it just won't look as good. Would you sell an eye for $1 million? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Jesus said that your eyes are worth nothing compared to the value of your soul: "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire" (Mark 9:47).

CARD TWO: He asked, "What will a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26). There is nothing as important as your salvation. Judge yourself by the Ten Commandments: Have you lied (even once), stolen (the value is irrelevant), committed adultery (Jesus said, "Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" -- Matt. 5:28), or killed (God considers hatred to be murder -- 1 John 3:15)? Have you loved God above all else? Be honest. You know you will be guilty on Judgment Day, and therefore end up in Hell. Today, repent (confess and turn from your sin) and trust in Jesus Christ. He died on the cross to take our punishment, and then He rose from the dead. He showed how much God loves us. Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. God will never fail you.
source: www.livingwaters.com


I have quite a few of these tracts at home. Should I chunk them, edit them, or what? This is an honest question. I don't want this to be (or start) another Calvinism debate (BTW, thanks George for your recent, excellent and thorough posts on the subject). I look forward to your counsel and thanks ahead of time for your posts.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by JOHN G

Hello all. I need some guidance on a tract issue. I really like the million dollar bill and curved allusion tracts distibuted by Ray Comfort and Way of the Master / Living Waters. However, as of late (as I am hopefully growing in the Lord) ,the defining of repentance on the tract has bothered me. Here lately, I usually have been marking out the part in parenthesis after repent on the second card. I also have wrote "KJV" by the read your bible part. Here is the text of the curved allusion cards.

CARD ONE: Hold both cards curving toward the right. Which is bigger, the pink or the blue? Both are the same size. Our eyes are often fooled by optical illusions. Speaking of eyes -- imagine you were offered $1 million for one of your eyes for a transplant. It could be taken out painlessly, and you'd be given a new glass eye that will look as good as your other eye, but it just won't look as good. Would you sell an eye for $1 million? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Jesus said that your eyes are worth nothing compared to the value of your soul: "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire" (Mark 9:47).

CARD TWO: He asked, "What will a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26). There is nothing as important as your salvation. Judge yourself by the Ten Commandments: Have you lied (even once), stolen (the value is irrelevant), committed adultery (Jesus said, "Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" -- Matt. 5:28), or killed (God considers hatred to be murder -- 1 John 3:15)? Have you loved God above all else? Be honest. You know you will be guilty on Judgment Day, and therefore end up in Hell. Today, repent (confess and turn from your sin) and trust in Jesus Christ. He died on the cross to take our punishment, and then He rose from the dead. He showed how much God loves us. Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. God will never fail you.
source: www.livingwaters.com


I have quite a few of these tracts at home. Should I chunk them, edit them, or what? This is an honest question. I don't want this to be (or start) another Calvinism debate (BTW, thanks George for your recent, excellent and thorough posts on the subject). I look forward to your counsel and thanks ahead of time for your posts.

They are preaching a false Gospel. The Scriptures tell us that:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23 KJV)

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29 KJV)

So what must a man do to be saved? Repent? Do good works (remember the works of the Law are mostly a bunch of "thou shalt not's")? Well, thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ that this question was asked IN THE BIBLE!

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30-31 KJV)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9 KJV)

These "another" gospel preachers are heretics. I'm sorry, I know most won't like my attitude about this, but this is where I draw my line.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)

SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[stephanos]

Ok, I forgot that I wanted to add that repentance isn't a bad thing to preach on, and of a truth it is necessary for salvation, but not in the way that people often think. People need to repent of anything they believed would get them into heaven. This I believe is part of salvation. We cannot trust in Christ alone for salvation and believe we need to make a pilgrimage to Mecca or take the uholy wafer Jesus or get sprinkled by a demonic white collared cleric of the queen of heaven. Those works are a smoothly paved road to hell. To be saved we must repent of our dead works (things we thought before were our righteousness, things we thought "might" get us into heaven) and trust in the Lord Jesus to save us from the just penalty of our sins. We must trust that JESUS became salvation to bear our sins on the cross. When we believe in the Gospel of Christ Jesus' death, burial and resurrection we ARE saved. It is that simple.

As for what to do with those cards; I simply don't know. If they contained info that would lead a curious soul to answers then I'd say use them. At least Chick tracts (which contain the "repent to be saved" message) have info on where to get more information (safe information that is). I wouldn't trust my dog with the WotM folks, let alone a precious soul who needs Jesus and a glass of warm milk.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[Rolando]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Ok, I forgot that I wanted to add that repentance isn't a bad thing to preach on, and of a truth it is necessary for salvation, but not in the way that people often think. People need to repent of anything they believed would get them into heaven. This I believe is part of salvation. We cannot trust in Christ alone for salvation and believe we need to make a pilgrimage to Mecca or take the uholy wafer Jesus or get sprinkled by a demonic white collared cleric of the queen of heaven. Those works are a smoothly paved road to hell. To be saved we must repent of our dead works (things we thought before were our righteousness, things we thought "might" get us into heaven) and trust in the Lord Jesus to save us from the just penalty of our sins. We must trust that JESUS became salvation to bear our sins on the cross. When we believe in the Gospel of Christ Jesus' death, burial and resurrection we ARE saved. It is that simple.

As for what to do with those cards; I simply don't know. If they contained info that would lead a curious soul to answers then I'd say use them. At least Chick tracts (which contain the "repent to be saved" message) have info on where to get more information (safe information that is). I wouldn't trust my dog with the WotM folks, let alone a precious soul who needs Jesus and a glass of warm milk.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Thanks the Lord someone is standing up for this. You see, I'll use this topic as a opportunity to mention that I myself been having an issue with a Gospel tract that I'm been handing out to people. It's from Fellowship Tract League and it's titled Eternal Life is a Free Gift. I like most of what's written in this tract except for a certain part:

How You Can Be Saved.

The Bible calls for “repentance toward God,” (Acts 20:21b) Repentance is a change of heart which causes you to turn toward God and away from your present way of life. Accept the Bible facts that you are guilty as a sinner before Him, and you are unable to deliver yourself from the punishment of hell, which is due you because your sin. (Fellowship Tract League, Tract 109, page 3).

"Repentance is a change of heart which causes you to turn toward God and away from your present way of life." What? Isn't this work salvation somehow? I mean, if getting saved required someone turning from their present way of life (which is of course sinful), in order for GOD to forgive them, then can we call Salvation a free gift? Please, give me a break! Anyway, if anyone believe I'm wrong in this feeling then please correct with the scriptures. Anyway, here's the link to the tract:
http://www.fellowshiptractleague.org...iew_page_1.htm

Please read the whole thing and tell what you think. It pains me the thought that I been giving out heresy to people who need to get saved.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Thanks the Lord someone is standing up for this. You see, I'll use this topic as a opportunity to mention that I myself been having an issue with a Gospel tract that I'm been handing out to people. It's from Fellowship Tract League and it's titled Eternal Life is a Free Gift. I like most of what's written in this tract except for a certain part

I use FTL's tracts and Chick's tracts because I understand what repentance means. The way these self righteous Calvinists push repentance is erroneous and destructive to the cause of Christ. Never the less I've decided, after prayer and posting on forums such as this, that it's safe to use FTL and Chick's tracts since someone who reads one of these tracts isn't even likely to know what that word even means. All they know is that they need to change, and that they need to be saved. In these tracts is enough to get these folks saved, so I use them. Lord willing, I'll find employment soon and I'll have some tracts printed for me with the Gospel of God's grace.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Luke]

I am going to start writing up a piece that desperately needs to be written on the ecumenical nature of Ray Comfort, and the ecumenical drawcard that is Paul Washer. Paul Washer is a 5 point calvinist, but I have seen 100% arminians totally fall in love with him, over ONE issue - his definition of repentance. It matches that of Rome exactly. All roads lead to Rome (except the KJB).

EDIT: I chucked out a heap of livingwater tracts. My wife and I ordered some NZ ones (are you a good kiwi), but the text on the back was the worst I have seen so far. It was 100% works based - you must confess and turn away from all sin.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Wow, here's the WotM issue back again

It seems like folks here really come down hard on them, labelling them heretics with a false gospel, throwing out their materials, outright blasting them all based on a vague definition of repentance.

Now, we can all agree that it is necessary that a sinner repent of whatever it was he was trusting in to save him before he trusted in Christ alone.
Is not the trusting in the RCC, 'science', or good works etc instead of Christ, sinful?
The oft-attacked WotM statement: "confess and turn from your sin" is correct when applied towards whatever a sinner was trusting in before placing it in Christ, including their good works.

For the record, I agree that forsaking each and every little sin, making oneself completly pure and sinless BEFORE being saved is not only heretical, but impossible. But I don't beleive thats what WotM promotes, or even flirts with.

The anger towards WotM seems to stem from putting words in their mouths, where they are not. Expanding on their given definition of repentance, making them say that lordship is necessary before salvation, when thats not what is even alluded to.
Now, I have actually watched ALL of the basic and intermediate training courses, read two WotM books, and watched more clips on the web, and surfed their site, and nowhere have I ever detected anything resembling lordship salvation, let alone a false gospel.
In fact, their entire drive is showing a person that whatever they were relying on to save themselves with isn't going to cut it, pointing them to Jesus Christ as the only option.

I think people get their hackles up when the law is used and they jump to conclusions about the people using it.
The law is used (in WotM) for the very purpose it was designed for: to show man his sin. Without the law, we would not know our sin. WotM makes it clear that its not by keeping the law we get saved, but its by falling very short of the law that makes us need the Saviour.
Yes yes, the law was given to the Jews, but using its depiction of God's moral standard to show a lost man his sin (which he doesn't think he has), is not a transgression of a Book rightly divided.
A sinner must know, understand and confess that he is a sinner before he can be saved. (thats not works, its a change of heart).

Repentance

Lorship Salvation

Now, I don't know anything much about Paul Washer, and I know that Living Waters doesn't focus on much other than witnessing, thereby sidestepping many other topics / truths. I wouldn't say they are ecumenical per se, but they're not separated either.
I know the Living Waters team is so eager to get their message out, they may have teamed up with just about anyone to be heard.
I don't agree with everything and anything from Comfort and crew, but it seems to me like this label of Lordship salvation might be going too far.
I did get uneasy at one of their videos about true and false conversions, where they misinterpreted the usage of Jesus' parables and also said that people's lives should be visibly Christian - and they should. They then urge to examine oneself to ensure they are really saved, but not by measuring their works, but rather by ensuring 100% faith in Jesus's atonement for their sins.

I was sincerely concerned, so I wrote them an email asking about this doctrine, and I got a response that their employees aren't to answer doctrinal questions, and that I should try Ray's blog, which is more of a battleground for Atheists, so I didn't post fuel for their fire on there.

So, I'm not a Living Waters troll, nor do I say these guys have everything right, I know of areas where they could really shape up (separation, Bible versions, expanded teachings on other worthy topics, satanic pitfalls and deceptions etc), but I also have learned not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and take what is good from a teacher, and brother in Christ, then dicern and reject what is false.
Their ministry is to promote effective evangelism, supplying methods, techniques, encouragement, confidence and materials to transform the average lukewarm Christian into a soul-winner.

Do they have everything right? No. Do they have great ways to explain salvation to people? Yes. Are there other, also effective ways? yes. Yet their methods are highly effective at cutting through the worldly barriers, the false religions, the humanism, the relativism, the denials, and get straight to the conscience, which is the soul-winner's ally and the God-given means to drive men to repentance and salvation. For that and other reasons, I value what good I did learn from them, adding it to other stuff gleaned from others (including you guys!)

I'm still open for discussions, because whenever my Bible-believing brethren hold a position I don't hold, I will always listen closely to their positions, for I myself cannot possibly have everything right, and I value other studied ideas. So before we bash and banish Ray Comfort, lets discuss the good and the bad, perhaps we can all benefit.

[TheBibleSender]

Originally Posted by BornAgainBibleBeliever514

Wow, here's the WotM issue back again

For the record, I agree that forsaking each and every little sin, making oneself completly pure and sinless BEFORE being saved is not only heretical, but impossible. But I don't beleive thats what WotM promotes, or even flirts with.

.

I was watchign a WOTM show the other day where Comfort was talking with a man. He said you must repent and trust in Christ. Which I thought was fine but then he said you have to stop your liying stop your lusting etc and trust in Christ. Sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. God bless.