[Mary]

In Genesis 9:22-27,
In Verse 24-25, "And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his done younger son had unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan, (Noah's grandson) is servant of servants shall be unto his breathren.

I know that there is no way of know what exactly happen between Noah and Ham to have a Father put a Curse on His Son, but it seems to me that Ham did more than to see his Father nude.

I think that this could be the first act of homosexuality in the Bible because of this "knew what his younger son had done unto him". It describes an action rather than a "look".

Does any one know about Jewish family traditions -if a Father can render a curse upon a child-son for an inappropirate look or Hebrew words? Anything!

There was a question about this passage at my church, and the pastor used the NIV translation, which I do not think is the most accurate translation.

What do you think? Please back up with scripture if able.
Mary

Mary, welcome to the forum...

You are correct about the NIV it's a terrible translation, in fact the word "sodomite" was removed, and this is no surprise since the translation team included a lesbian and a homosexual.


I'll see if I can add a few thoughts for you to consider...


24 "And Noah awoke from his wine,
and knew what his younger son had done unto him."

Yes, that is the key verse, it indicates something happened to Noah, and more directly that his son DID SOMETHING TO HIM, but it is not specific so it's hard to be dogmatic about some of these things.

However, please notice the word "UNCOVERED" below...

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken;
and he was uncovered within his tent.

If you compare the use of the word "UNCOVER" in later passages of the Bible you will see this is associated with a sinful act, for example in the context of Leviticus 18, you can see how many times that term UNCOVER is used and the context is various types of incestuous relations (food for thought)...

6None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

[Luke]

My question is why?

I can understand Ham doing something to Noah's wife... which is also considered to be "His Nakedness"

The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

But why would Ham sodomize his father? It makes little sense...

[chette777]

Luke the Heart of men is wicked. Strange flesh is an attraction for some unsaved. the perverseness of his heart would answer why he would do something.

but because God had Already blessed Ham to be fruitful and multiply Noah holding to not cursing that whom the LORD has blessed, curses his son Canaan and Hams decedents to be a slaves to the other two brothers decedents forever.

[KingSolomon1611]

Originally Posted by Luke

My question is why?

I can understand Ham doing something to Noah's wife... which is also considered to be "His Nakedness"

The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

But why would Ham sodomize his father? It makes little sense...

It would also be lacking in sense if the act was with his mother


I have heard it asked, "Do you ever wonder why they have a particular reason why their culture popularized the term mother f--- "? Another observation is asked that why do a lot of the rappers use the expression "Who is your daddy?" I have a buddy and know a few folks that have experience as prison guards who have stated that there is an usual amount of sodomy activity in the prison populations.

In Alabama Limestone Correctional Facility was the only place where HIV positive and AIDS prisoners could be housed. They were segregated from the rest of the population at the prison. After a while the prison officials discovered that one chain link fence was not sufficient to achieve their desires of keeping them apart.


If this is too much detail let me know and I'll edit the post. I tried keeping it as civil as possible without spelling it out. If you need more details...don't worry about it. We aren't even supposed to speak of some of the things people do.

[chette777]

King,

Is it safe to assume that a majority of those are Hamite descendants correct?

Originally Posted by Luke

My question is why?....
why would Ham sodomize his father? It makes little sense...

Brother, first of all I'm not sure that it happened.
That's why I said it's hard to be dogmatic about some of these things.
But I think we can all agree that common sense plays no part in it either way... how much sense does it make when one of these perverts sodomizes a little child? ...it's horrible and it happens all the time.

[greenbear]

The account doesn't say that Noah was asleep when Ham saw his nakedness. It just says he was drunk and that at whatever point when he woke up he knew what Ham had done to him.

I've never studied this point but:

Do we know that Canaan was born yet? If he wasn't then possibly Noah prophesied about a grandson who had just been conceived by his wife. Who's your daddy wouldn't be the right question in this case. Maybe someone else knows if scripture elsewhere would refute this idea.

Genesis 9:20-27 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

[PaulB]

Good question, I think that the text itself is clear enough of the issue.

Regarding Luke’s possible interpretation I must say that it is a new one to me!

“And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.”

It seems clear to me that this is nothing other than an immoral act of some kind (more than likely of a homosexual nature). They alone had all been given the chance to start a new world together and lo and behold, before they had hardly got going Ham brings the perversity of the cursed world back into their midst again.

No one knows for sure what took place but it does seem pretty obvious that Ham took a sexual advantage over the inebriated state of his own father, probably with the thought that he wouldn’t know anything about it afterwards.

But it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was an immoral act that Ham had carried out upon Noah. And because God cursed the world with a devastating judgement that history will never be allowed to forget, Noah cursed Ham in a similar manner thus distancing the cursed thing from the redeemed.

Hope this is helpful

God bless

PaulB

[KingSolomon1611]

Originally Posted by chette777

King,

Is it safe to assume that a majority of those are Hamite descendants correct?

It is safe.