[chette777]

My previous post on Faith Alone is not a baptist only a discussion.

my point is I feel that we are the reason the charismatics have gotten so far off balanced with scripture si because we are to busy focusing on the wrong area in there lives. it is not about "don't do this" but rather to live a life of Christ in the Holy Ghost. a spirit filled person is a spiritual person and will understand. thos ein the flesh are carnal and will not understand.

I want to quote Lewis sperry Chafer in HIs Book "he who is spiritual"

"The teaching manifestation of the Spirit in the believer is described by Christ in John 16:12-15: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of [from] himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine and shall show it unto you."
Here is a promise that the child of God may enter the highest realm of knowable truth as revealed in the Word of God. "All things that the Father hath" are included in the things of Christ and "things to come," and these form the boundless field into which the believer may be led by the divine Teacher. This storehouse of divine reality will no doubt engage our minds and hearts for ever; but Christians may be even now entering and progressing in these realms of truth and grace. "Now we have received ... the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (First Corinthians 2:12). "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him" (First John 2:27).
Beyond all the range of human knowledge there are things "which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man; ... but God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit." However, such truth is revealed by the Spirit only to spiritual Christians. To some who were truly saved the Apostle wrote: "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (First Corinthians 3:1, 2). This is a sad disclosure of the state of some believers. Though born again and possessing the Spirit, their carnality of life precludes them from understanding, or progressing in, the "deep things of God." Some, regardless of educational qualifications, go to the Scriptures of Truth as "those that find great spoil." His Word, to them, is "sweeter also than honey and the honey comb." To others, regardless of educational qualifications, there is no discovery and revelation of Truth. The Bible is read by these as a duty, if read at all. This is a tragedy in the realm of infinite issues. It is not alone the question of personal pleasure and profit in the marvels of divine Truth: it involves the realities of knowledge, or ignorance; obedience, or disobedience for want of understanding; power, or weakness; helpfulness, or hurtfulness in the life and testimony of the one who, because of the indwelling Spirit, might be coming to know and to impart to others something of the boundless Truth of God. No amount of human education can correct this defect. The root trouble is carnality, and when this is cured, the "eyes of the heart" will be enlightened, and the inflow of sanctifying Truth will be continuous and unbroken. "He that is spiritual discerneth all things."
Christian growth and the deeper knowledge of the Truth are to be distinguished from spirituality. It is possible to be filled with the Spirit when immature in growth, experience and understanding. Christian growth is largely conditioned on the study of the Word, prayer, and service; while spirituality does not wait on these things, but is conditioned upon immediate adjustments to the Spirit. Since the Spirit is always our Teacher, it is imperative that we always remain teachable. We should be willing humbly to hear His voice through any and every instrument."

it is because these Christians in the Emergent Church Movement are carnal and carnality always will lead to extremes of which the Charismatics have always been. when they are Carnal they are not taught of the Spirit to know spiritual things and truths of God wonderful Grace

Concerning a spirit filled christian I quote fromt eh same author, "a spiritual Christian is a Spirit-filled Christian in whom the unhindered Spirit is manifesting Christ by producing a true Christian character, which is the "fruit of the Spirit"; by energizing true Christian service through the exercise of a "gift of the Spirit"; by personal instruction in the Word of God; by inspiring true praise and thanksgiving; by leading the believer in an unbroken "walk in the Spirit"; by actualizing into celestial heart-ecstasy that which has been taken by faith concerning the positions and possessions in Christ; and by inclining, illuminating and empowering the believer in the prayer of intercession.
True spirituality is a seven-fold manifestation of the Spirit in and through the one whom He fills. It is a divine output of the life, rather than a mere cessation of things which are called "worldly." True spirituality does not consist in what one does not do, it is rather what one does. It is not suppression: it is expression. It is not holding in self: it is living out Christ. The unregenerate would not be saved if he should cease sinning: he would not be born of God. The Christian would not be spiritual if he should abstain from worldliness: he would possess none of the manifestations of the Spirit.
The world and "worldly" Christians turn to so-called "worldly" things because they discover in them an anesthetic to deaden the pain of an empty heart and life. The anesthetic, which is often quite innocent in itself, is not so serious a matter as the empty heart and life. Little is gained toward true spirituality when would-be soul doctors have succeeded in persuading the afflicted to get on without the anesthetic. if these instructors do not present the reality of consolation and filling for heart and life which God has provided, the condition will not be improved. How misleading is the theory that to be spiritual one must abandon play, diversion and helpful amusement! Such a conception of spirituality is born of a morbid human conscience. It is foreign to the Word of God. It is a device of Satan to make the blessings of God seem abhorrent to young people who are overflowing with physical life and energy. It is to be regretted that there are those who in blindness are so emphasizing the negatives of the Truth that the impression is created that spirituality is opposed to joy, liberty and naturalness of expression in thought and life in the Spirit. Spirituality is not a pious pose. It is not a "Thou shall not": it is "Thou shalt." It flings open the doors into the eternal blessedness, energies and resources of God. It is a serious thing to remove the element of relaxation and play from any life. We cannot be normal physically, mentally or spiritually if we neglect this vital factor in human life. God has provided that our joy shall be full.
It is also to be noted that one of the characteristics of true spirituality is that it supersedes lesser desires and issues. The Biblical, as well as practical, cure for "worldliness" among Christians is so to fill the heart and life with the eternal blessings of God that there will be a joyous preoccupation and absent-mindedness to unspiritual things. A dead leaf that may have clung to the twig through the external raging storms of Winter, will silently fall to the ground when the new flow of sap from within has begun in the Spring. The leaf falls because there is a new manifestation of life pressing from within outward. A dead leaf cannot remain where a new bud is springing, nor can worldliness remain where the blessings of the Spirit are flowing. We are not called upon to preach against "dead leaves." We have a message of the imperishable Spring. It is of the outflow of the limitless life of God. When by the Spirit ye are walking ye cannot do the things that ye otherwise would.
It is the Spirit's work to produce in the believer a life which is heavenly in character. This life is inimitable; yet it is commonly supposed that spirituality consists in struggling to observe a particular set of rules, or the imitation of a heavenly ideal. Spirituality is not gained by struggling: it is to be claimed. It is not imitation of a heavenly ideal: it is the impartation of the divine power which alone can realize the ideal. "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." The written Word reveals the character of the spiritual life and exhorts to its fulfillment; but it as faithfully reveals that the life can be lived only by the in-wrought power of God. We are to "serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." There is little blessing for any Christian until he abandons the principle of living by rules and learns to walk by the Spirit in God-ordained liberty and in fresh and unbroken fellowship with his Lord. The divine precepts will then be kept by the power of God."

When we focus on externals instead of filling the heart and soul with the wonderful grace God has given us in Christ. we create a system that will drive people insane in struggleing to amintain a Supposed Christian Lifestyle that really goes against what God wants for us as hi children.

anyone who would like a zip copy of Lewsis sperry chafersbooks send me an email I will be glad to send them to you. may I recomend "Grace" and then "He that is Spiritual" these books though written a long time ago are relevent for today. they will help transform your life and Ministries when kept in balance.

Chette

[Biblestudent]

Many Christians seem to ask today, "Just what exactly is 'worldly'? What do you means by the word 'worldly'?"

Charismatics take a lot of heat just because they are charismatics (Pentecostals). That's not right. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie

Charismatics take a lot of heat just because they are charismatics (Pentecostals). That's not right. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Yes, but there is much in charismatic theology and practice that does not line up with the Word of God. You can't skip the doctrine that teaches us how to conduct ourselves, and then just debate other actions - if our primary foundation is off, that will affect all of our actions.

It isn't just the emergent church that has gone off course - many mainstream denominations have as well.

Jerry, that is just your opinion. I (as a Pentecostal) can defend my "theology" and "practice" using the Scriptures. Many of "us" can. As a matter of fact, the AV1611 defends it quite well. Acts 19 is a perfect example concerning our doctrine of being Baptized in the Holy Ghost subsequent to salvation. The Ephesians were asked:

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


The word "since" in newer versions is replaced with "when" which is more in keeping with your doctrinal position.

I'm quite able to defend my "charismatic" beliefs with plenty of Scripture to back it up (I prefer Pentecostal since Charismatic tends to refer to non-traditional Pentecostal churches). The difference isn't in what the Bible says, it's what we think it means. I believe mine is the correct interpretation, and you believe yours is.

Many Biblical doctrines are that way. Where we should question someone's faith is in the fundamental doctrines (essential doctrines). The "hot-spots" doctrinally are tongues, eternal security, divorce & remarriage, the rapture, Bible prophecy: which are not essential doctrines for salvation.

I'm not saying you can't disagree. Please state your position and offer your reasons why. To say "there is much in charismatic theology and practice that does not line up with the Word of God" is only your opinion. I don't think your position lines up with the Word of God. But I absolutely will not say you aren't a Christian; you belong to a cult; or other such rhetoric.

I believe the United Pentecostal Church and a good-many Apostolic Churches are cultish because they deny the doctrine of the Trinity and the Apostolic Churches I'm speaking of believe in baptismal regeneration. That's cause for concern since that is going against the essential (fundamental) doctrines of Christianity.

[Biblestudent]

1. Tongues are a SIGN to the unbelieving Jew, not to the church, and not even to the Gentile ("Greeks").
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
2. There are rules to speaking in tongues that should be followed by anyone who practices it:
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1) Only two to three people are allowed to speak in tongues.
2) It should be "by course" and not simultaneous.
3) There should be an interpreter; no interpreter, keep silence.
4) No woman is allowed to speak in tongues.

3. Tongues, after it served its purpose, CEASED.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Tongues were to validate to the Jews (who rejected the gospel of the kingdom preached by the apostles of the circumcision) the gospel of grace preached by the Apostle of the Gentiles. That the early church spoke in tongues was for the purpose of reaching the "remnant" of the Jews that they might be saved.
Now that we have the completed revelation - the Holy Bible ("that which is perfect is come"), special Jewish signs and gifts of prophecies now fail, tongues have CEASED, knowledge have vanished.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Since Acts 19, every single believer throughout history has received the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Jerry, I desagree. Your proof text teaches that the Holy Ghost baptizes you into the body of Christ.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

The above verse says Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Ist Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Ghost is the baptizer. In Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33 and Acts 1:5 Jesus is the baptizer.

But if you don't want to believe that Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, fortunately, it isn't essential for salvation. It is a gift (Acts 2:38).

On 1st Corinthians 13:8 - 10, the subject is "charity", and it never fails. Verse 10's "that which is perfect" isn't identified as anything in particular. The point is that the perfect will always replace the not-perfect. In this case, the completed will replace the not completed. Trying to use these verses to show tongues isn't for today is very weak in my opinion.

Using the "signs of an apostle" argument is a much stronger case to prove your position. But, chapters 12 and 14 has an apostle teaching the proper use of these "sign gifts".

Yup, and NO ONE today is using the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation according to how 1 Corinthians 14 instructs.