| FAQ |
| Calendar |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
 |
Menu
| Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
| Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
06-07-2009, 07:19 PM
|
||||
|
||||
Luke 17:36 inspired Scripture or not?
Luke 17:36 Is it inspired Scripture or not?
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Luke 17:36 Rick Norris and other Bible critics, (none of whom believe that there exists ANY Bible in ANY language that IS the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God) uses his usual “Yeah, hath God said...?” approach to raising doubts about the authenticity of this and many other verses found in our Holy Bible. He asks: “Do you claim that the KJV translators called into question Luke 17:36 with their marginal note: "This 36 verse is wanting [lacking] in most of the Greek copies"? It is interesting that you never seem to mention the fact that several translations that KJV-only advocates themselves put in their pure stream of Bibles or good line of Bibles also do not include Luke 17:36 [the Luke 17:36 that is the KJV]. For example, all the editions of Luther's German Bible printed in his lifetime, Tyndale's 1526 New Testament, Tyndale's 1534 New Testament, the 1535 Coverdale's Bible, the 1537 Matthew's Bible, and the 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible did not have Luke 17:36. The 1560 Geneva Bible had a verse 36, but it was the text of what is verse 37 in the KJV.” First of all, it is true that the marginal note in the King James Bible does mention that “this 36th verse is wanting in most of the Greek copies”. The marginal note does not say that the verse shouldn’t be there, or even question whether it is authentic or not. It just states that it is not found in most Greek copies. We should ask ourselves the simple question: Then why did they put it in the King James Bible and not even in italics but in regular print just like verses 35 and 37 that surround it? The verse is not found in Sinaticus, Vaticanus or A. However Sinaticus, one of the so called "oldest and best" also omits all of verse 35 as well as 36! Vaticanus contains 35 but not 36. Modern versions like the RSV, NRSV, ESV, some NASB’s, the NIV and the Message omit the verse, based not on “the Majority” (which they constantly ignore) but primarily on Vaticanus. The New American Standard omitted Luke 17:36 from their text from 1963 to 1972. But then in 1977 and again in the latest 1995 edition, they have once again included the verse in their text but in [brackets], indicating doubt as to its authenticity. They even have a false footnote which reads: “Early manuscripts do not contain this verse.” It may be true that many Greek mss. did not have it, but as we shall soon see there is an abundance of early manuscripts, church fathers and ancient bible versions that did include the verse. It was even in the Catholic Douay version of 1950. The significance of the Catholic Douay containing verse 36, is that they have Vaticanus in the Vatican library, yet did not follow it in omitting the verse either. The more recent Catholic versions like the New American bible, the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem have now omitted it from their ever changing bible versions. The textual evidence for the inclusion of Luke 17:36 as inspired Scripture is weighty and significant. Even according to the Nestle-Aland critical textual apparatus Luke 17:36 is found in the Old Latin (which bears witness to a text that preceeds Sinaiticus and Vaticanus by 200 years) copies of a, aur, b, c, d, e, f, ffr, f13, q, and r. It is found in ancient Greek lectionaries 68, 76, 673, 813 and 1223. The verse is found in the Syriac Peshitta, Sinaitic, Curetonian, and Harclean ancient versions; it is in the Armenian, Ethiopian, and Slavonic ancient versions. According to John Gill, it is in the oldest Arabic, Persian and Complutensian bibles. It is also found in a multitude of Greek manuscripts like D, I, 030, 4, 262,476,700, plus about 25 others I could list. In fact, the Modern Greek Bible used by the Greek Orthodox churches all over the world contains the verse in full. So too does the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. It uses the 1904 text of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and it includes the verse in its text. It can be seen on their website. As for some early church fathers, the verse is also quoted by Taitian in 172 AD, Eusebius 339, Ambrose 397, Augustine 430 and others. Some of Mr. Norris information is false or misleading. He says Luke 17:36 was missing from “all the editions of Luther's German Bible printed in his lifetime, Tyndale's 1526 New Testament, Tyndale's 1534 New Testament, the 1535 Coverdale's Bible, the 1537 Matthew's Bible, and the 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible did not have Luke 17:36. The 1560 Geneva Bible had a verse 36, but it was the text of what is verse 37 in the KJV.” Admittedly it was not in Tyndale’s New Testament. But Tyndale had a few other quirks going on in his N.T. as well. He also omitted the entire verse of Mark 11:26 - “But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.” In the book of Revelation Tyndale omits the words: “And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee” from Revelation 18:23 and the entire verse in Revelation 21:26 which reads: “And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.”!! As for Norris’s claim that Luke 17:36 was not in Luther’s Bible during his lifetime, I have looked at two different websites which have Luther’s 1545 German translation, and both of them have the verse included. The updated 1912 edition of Luther’s bible also has the verse, as well as the more modern German Bibles like Elberfelder 1905 and Schlachter 1951. As for the Geneva bible, the entire verse is included in the 1587, 1599 and 1602 editions of the Geneva Bible. I have two of these copies right here in my study. Regarding the various Greek printed texts, Luke 17:36 was not in Erasmus (as Norris correctly states) nor in Stephens first 3 editions, but it was in his 4th edition. It is in the printed Greek texts of Beza, Elziever brothers and in modern Greek bibles. It is also in George Berry's text which is that of Stephens 1550, and in Green's interlinear Greek N.T. The text is found in the Modern Greek Bible used in the Orthodox churches. It was not in Tyndale 1525 nor in Coverdale 1535, but it was in the Wycliffe Bible of 1395, the Great Bible and the Bishops’ Bible of 1568 and later in the Geneva Bibles 1587 to 1602. Today Luke 17:36 is found in the NKJV 1982, the Amplified Bible, the Holman Standard of 2003, Youngs, Mace’s 1729 translation, Wesley’s 1755 translation, Webster’s 1833, the New Berkeley Version in modern English, the KJV 21st Century Version 1994, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, Green’s 2000 literal, and in the 1996 International Standard Version. As for foreign language translations, we see that the vast majority of all foreign language Bibles contain Luke 17:36 as inspired Scripture. The verse is found in the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, the Reina Valera 1901, 1960 and 1995. The editors who put out the NASB (the Lockman Foundation) have made a modern Spanish version called La Biblia de las Américas 1997 and it contains the verse and not even in brackets. The Portuguese Almeida and even the same people who put out the NIV (International Bible Society) have their modern version in Portuguese called O Livro 2000 and the same IBS has put out the 1997 Italian La Parola e Vita and the French 1999 La Bible du Semeur. They all contain the verse in the Bible text. You see, the ISV is a little inconsistent when they translate into foreign languages. Luke 17:36 is also found in the text of these other Bible translations in foreign languages: The Modern Hebrew bible, the French Martin 1744, Louis Segond 1910, Ostervald 1996 and the 1999 Bible du Semeur; the 1549 Italian Diodati, the New Diodati 1991 and the Italian Riveduta 1927; the Afrikaans bible 1953, Albanian, Armenian, Bulgarian, Finnish 1776, Dutch Staten Vertaling, Coptic New Testament, the Russian Synodal Version, Russian Zhuromsky, Chinese Union Version, Japanese JKUG, Romanian Cornilescu and the Modern Greek Version, to name just a few of the many. Luke 17:36 - “Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” - is either inspired Scripture or it isn’t. I and many other Bible believers are convinced that it is. It is the “No Bible is inspired or inerrant” folks who will try to convince some that it isn’t. By His sovereign grace, believing The Book Will Kinney |
|
#2
06-08-2009, 01:01 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
(Western Saxon 990 AD) Twegen beoð æt æcere. an bið genumen & oðer bið læfed; (Western Saxon 1175 AD) Twegen byð æt akere an byð ge-numen & oðer beoð lefed. Personally I can't see any doctrinal reason for the verse being omitted(as in I John 5:7, I Tim. 3:16, etc.), my guess this was just carelessness on somebody's part. Luke 17 contains an interesting little doctrinal thingy, interesting in the light of the persecution of Galileo and Nicolas Copernicus by Rome in suggesting a centricity to all celestial objects in there makeup and their motion. In Luke 17 Jesus Christ is confirming Isaiah 40:22 in telling us the earth is round: Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Now, how can it be day and night at the same time during an event when Mama Mia, the eartha, she's a flat? (KJV) Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (Douay Rheims 1599) It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. (Good News Bible) Is. 40:22 It was made by the one who sits on his throne above the earth and beyond the sky; the people below look as tiny as ants. He stretched out the sky like a curtain, like a tent in which to live. (New American Bible) Is. 40:22 He sits enthroned above the vault of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; He stretches out the heavens like a veil, spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Contemporary English Version) Is.40:22 God is the one who rules the whole earth, and we that live here are merely insects. He spread out the heavens like a curtain or an open tent. (NET) Is. 40:22 He is the one who sits on the earth's horizon; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers before him. He is the one who stretches out the sky like a thin curtain, and spreads it out46 like a pitched tent. After reading 5000 verses or so of the "NET" bible I have come to the conclusion it's probably the worst English translation of Vaticanus I've ever read since The New English Bible of 1970. I accept Luke 17:36 as given by inspiration of God through the KJV translators and certainly trust Him and them more than Norris or any other Original Manuscript Fraud. Their positions are only propagated due to their high profiles, "celebrity" statuses, and audiences and not arrived at my any scholarship, honest scientific method, or faith(see Edwards Hills LOGIC OF FAITH). Though not directly related to your study on Luke 17:36. while reading it I did notice this is the Jesus Teaches A Round Earth passage which can be cross referred to Is 40:22. I guess my point is there is a Bible out there for every crackpot theory and false belief you want to name. We have the Nazi Bibles that read "new order" in place of "reformation" in Hebrews 9:10, now we also have 5 versions of the bible above for the Flat Earthers! Good study Will, grace and peace brother. Tony |
|
#3
06-08-2009, 04:56 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Luke 17:36
Quote:
God bless, Will K |
|
#4
06-09-2009, 06:58 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
I use Swordsearcher for main study, I have E-Sword for different version comparison. If you have E-Sword and want them, contact me and I'll email you those Saxon and the Goth version modules, Will. I found a MAJOR blunder in verse deletion in Acts 3 but don't have any manuscript references, Grace and peace brother, thank you for all your work Will Tony |
|
#5
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
God's precious words
Quote:
http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/ As for the Saxon, I have nothing on it. Send me the link or whatever it is and I'll gladly take a look at it. my email is willjkinney@comcast.net You got my curiosity going. What did you find in Acts 3? God bless, Will K |
|
#6
06-09-2009, 11:32 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
The Universal Corruption Of Acts 3:19
Quote:
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Will, many people who have little or no dispensational understanding of the Scriptures don't understand the verse, dispensationalists see this verse as one that's quite easy to understand: Restored, Believing, Messianic Israel's sins are not blotted out till the Second Coming of Christ. This Remnant will have to go through the tribulation, keep from taking the Mark Of The Beast and endure to the end. Those who obey will have their sins blotted out, those who don;t will be condemned to hell. Post-millennial or Amillennial believers are confused by the verse, and that is one reason for it's alteration. The second reason for the corruption of this verse is the Catholic Church claims to have the authority to blot out sins, not God, so the following versions of their "bibles" chop off "...the presence of the Lord" while most all the rest are reworded to say that the times of refreshing are brought about by the blotting out of sins(read Wesley's reading of this verse below as an example, note how he changed "when" to "that"), and is a post-millennial reading of collective blotting out rather than individual, which fits in the post millennial teaching that the Church will bring in the Millennium. Notice Ray Comfort's EVIDENCE Bible agrees with the KJV as does the Peshitta and a few others, look at the NKJV reading and note the change of wording: (ASV) Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; (Bishops) Repent ye therfore and conuert, that your sinnes may be done away, when the tyme of refreshyng shall come, in the presence of the Lorde. (CEV) So turn to God! Give up your sins, and you will be forgiven. (Clementine Vulgate[Catholic]) Poenitemini igitur et convertimini, ut deleantur peccata vestra: (Complete Apostles' Bible) Repent therefore and turn back, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that seasons of relaxation may come from the presence of the Lord, (Coverdale) Do penaunce now therfore and turne you, that youre synnes maye be done awaye, whan the tyme of refreshinge shal come before the presence of the LORDE, (Diaglott NT) Reform you therefore and turn you, in order that the to be wiped out of you the sins, that may come seasons of refreshing from face of the Lord, (Douay Rheims[Catholic]) Be penitent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (ESV) Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, (EVID) Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; [b] (Geneva) Amend your liues therefore, and turne, that your sinnes may be put away, whe the time of refreshing shal come from the presence of the Lord. (Good News) Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins. If you do, 3:20 times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and he will send Jesus, who is the Messiah he has already chosen for you. (Goodspeed NT) So repent and turn to God, to have your sins wiped out, and happier times will come from the presence of the Lord, (Holman Christian Standard) Therefore repent and turn back, that your sins may be wiped out so that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (International Standard Version) Therefore, repent and turn to him to have your sins blotted out, (Peshitta) Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of tranquility shall come to you from before the presence of the LORD; (NAS) "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (NET) Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out, (New American Bible[Catholic]) Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away, (NIV) Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (New Jerusalem Bible[Catholic]) Now you must repent and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, (NKJV) Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (New Living) Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins. (NWT) "Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah (Reina Valera 1669) Así que, arrepentíos y convertíos, para que sean borrados vuestros pecados; pues que los tiempos del refrigerio de la presencia del Señor son venidos; (RSV) Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (RV) Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; (Tyndale) Repent ye therfore and turne yt youre synnes maye be done awaye when the tyme of refresshinge commeth which we shall have of the presence of the Lorde (Wesley's) Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (Wycliffe) Therfor be ye repentaunt, and be ye conuertid, that youre synnes be don awei, I didn't bring this up as a separate study in Bible Versions for the simple reason I don't have the manuscript evidence for the reading(s) at this time. I'm sure Dr. Ruckman may have covered it in his works, I don't know, I don't have my library anymore. Grace and peace brother Will Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-09-2009 at 11:39 PM. Reason: typo |
|
#7
06-10-2009, 04:29 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Acts 3:19
Hi Tony, I just saw an article on this verse over at the 1611 Baptist site. It was done by Doc Holliday.
http://www.baptist1611.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346 He mentions some of the same things you did. Will K |
|
#8
06-10-2009, 10:52 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
http://baptist1611.com/forum/showthr...ted=1#post1156 It's message #5, it may be my last message, lol, but as you know me from this forum, I believe in just speaking in a somewhat direct manner. Grace and peace brother Tony |
|
|
Linear Mode
