[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

This is a continuation of the discussion at:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Fuction!

In fact, for simplicity, here is the full discussion.

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

(One personal example: I have even tried to study out whether "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" in the King James Bible .. perfect translation doctrinally with the proper and significant distinction .. are simply properly reflecting the simple and true Greek grammar differentiation that is lost by many modern doofus scholars. Modern textcrit-seminarian scholarship becomes so confused that they can barely even understand the question, much less yet give the answer.)

Originally Posted by Truth4Today

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26). You must understand that there are two aspects to faith. One, is the Function of faith and is usually designated by the word “your” or something similar. Two, is the Doctrine of faith, which is usually found proceeded by the article “the”. An example of this is found in (Col. 1:23) “ If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”. Here faith is referring to the doctrine/the gospel. Therefore, we can see that “faith of Jesus Christ” is in reference, NOT to the function of Christ’s faith nor even our function of faith, BUT to the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).

================================================== ================

Thanks Truth4today. Just to be clear, I would first prefer to simply know if the English distinctions in the King James Bible are all seen in proper (not modernistic) analysis of the Greek. We may (or may not) agree on the doctrinal distinction you share on 'faith of Christ'. And the interpretative is a very proper discussion, alongside or after the grammatical and contextual translation issue. I am not trying to discourage the interpretative, not at all, since the doctrinal deficiency in the modern versions is extremely significant. However allow me first to emphasize the grammatical/translational.

Apparently in Greek the preposition is implied in some of the verses where the King James Bible has "faith of Christ". And modern versions often make those verses, almost a dozen of these verses, "faith in Christ" (I'll supply examples in a follow-up post) possibly because it fits their stagnant and one-dimensional doctrinal views.

What I am trying to determine is whether there is primarily only a subjective translational decision aspect to the dozen or so verses where modern versions have removed "faith of Christ" (ie. are they just doctrinally deficient). And whether it is a function of these versions not following classical/Biblical Greek (ie. the modern versions are also grammatically deficient). In the latter case they would be rejecting simple and proper translation to match their preferred doctrinal errors.

I hope I have expressed this distinction clear enough. The b-greek forum generally offered the "context only" view, without any real clarity. I have a sense they may be too trapped in modern Greek translation and version concepts, and have forest and trees difficulties. Perhaps the truth of the grammar is a bit too simple and clear for them to accept.

Originally Posted by Truth4Today

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26) ... the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).

Yes, this is helpful, since Galatians 3:26 has the preposition directly indicating "in" (or by). There will be about two dozen verses to check to see how consistent is the Greek in this preposition application as expressed in the King James Bible. e.g. Is it simply true that without the preposition for "in" .. the translation can be expected to be "of" - unless there are specific alternate compelling factors ?

Continuing - I will try to use mostly the John Hurt Parallel Greek New Testament site and scripturetext.com and crosswalk.com. btw, readers, none of this is particularly hard at this level, even knowing zilch Greek. Greek grammar and English grammar seem to line up quite nicely.

Here are your three examples.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

enothta thV pistewV (thV - definite article)

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent,
I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit,
with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

pistei tou euaggeliou (tou - definite article)

1 Thessalonians 3:2
And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,
and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ,
to establish you,
and to comfort you concerning your faith:

euaggeliw tou cristou (tou - definite article)

In looking at these examples, grammatically, they do seem to fit what is shared above. There is no specific Greek preposition, and the King James Bible has "faith of" or similar. As do the modern versions, since there are no doctrinal axes to be ground by a possible modification.

I will plan to share and study more on this in follow-up posts. There are a dozen or two verses to review and I need to divide this up into research segments.

Shalom,
Steven

-Steven Avery,

You are very welcome!

Too, I am enjoying your post here and will be looking forward to seeing the rest.

As well, John Hurt Parallel Greek New Testament site is a good one. I have used it often.


__________________________________

- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)

Are you saved by your faith in Christ?

Does Jesus of Nazareth have faith?

Originally Posted by Scott Simons

Are you saved by your faith in Christ?

No , your faith is a work Jn.6:28-29 In John 6 The question was asked ; What must we do [ The dictionary definition of a work is something that you do or did ] that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered them , This is the work of God , that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Its pretty plain in that text that faith is a work . Paul speaking in 1 Thess. 1:2-3 says ; We give thanks to God always for you all , making mention of you in our prayers ; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith [ its also pretty obvious here also that faith is a work ] and labor of love , and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ , in the sight of God and our father. Love also is described as a labor , and labor is work . We are not saved by our faith , it is a token or evidence that we already have eternal life , our faith is a fruit of the Spirit as seen in Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, its the evidence that we have the Holy Spirit.
Notice also about love being called a labor and it is also a fruit of the spirit , which is evidence that we have the Holy Spirit . We don't believe or love [ work ] to get saved , it is the evidence that we already are , John 5: 24 says ; Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Notice the tenses for these words , heareth and believeth [ present tense ]
hath [ past tense ] everlasting life and is passed [ past completed action ]
from death unto life . if you are hearing and believing you already possess eternal life .

Originally Posted by Scott Simons

Does Jesus of Nazareth have faith?

Yes , we are saved by his faith not ours , Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. We are saved by Christ's faith not our own , thats the gift of God , its not our faith , it says and that , speaking of the faith is not of yourselves , its not our faith its the faith of Christ spoken of in these verses , Rom.3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

our belief evidences that we have been justified by Christ .

[chette777]

never the less faith is a Necessary function of the human will in order for a man to have Gods Grace of the work of Christ applied to his life.

it is a doctrine, an action, a lifestyle and it is also an Biblical example.

Greetings,

The faith of Christ is defined in the very same passage that it is used in.

Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The faith of Christ is defined simply as the faith that Jesus had. We all know through the scriptures that faith is an action word. Jesus' faith was that He loved us and gave Himself for us. We are instructed to have that same faith. This is the faith that Paul was living by when he lived in peril of his very life for the gospels sake and the churches that he had planted.

Peace

Well is faih a noun or a verb?

Does God have faith?