[Luke]

This is something I posted on another forum, in regards to "debating" calvinism (not much of a debate, the other guy is only a new calvinist, and I haven't done much debating in a long time).

Anyway, here it is (there were some posts before this, but I am asking a specific question)

Is my understanding of John 6:44 and John 17 completely off base? I have held this view for a while, and it is something that I believe God taught me when I was seeking the truth about Calvinism. - The top section in italics is a post I quoted. - my response is below it

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According to Phillipians 2:12-13 whom "works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose"? Is it you or God? Does that mean you then "Let go, and let God'? No, you are still commanded to walk in the light. As I stated before you cannot reconcile the 2. Your argument therefore is irrelevant.

Tell me in John 6:44 who can come to Christ without the Father drawing them? No one. No one will come to Christ without first being drawn by God. It's not that man can't come to God, it's that he won't. Read Romans 1, it is clear.

-Alen


Maybe you aren't as Calvinist as I thought then.

You are right. It's not that man can't, it's that he won't. It's a matter of the will. Not can't. Won't. Rebellion is the cause, not the nature.

Who does God draw? Only his elect from before the foundation of the world? Or does God draw all men? Do all men have faith?

I am not claiming that man somehow knows he is evil and comes to Christ without any prompting from God or the Holy Spirit. It is God that prompts. It is God that awakens our hearts to the gospel of God, it is the Holy Spirit that convicts. That IS undebatable. What is being discussed is not whether God draws men, but rather, who does he draw, and why?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That's fair enough. That's what the Bible says there. However, this in no means proves total inability, nor does it even imply unconditional election. It simply says that God is the one that takes the first step in a man's salvation.

What does

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Were these that went back Jesus disciples? John seems to think they were. But they don't seem to persevere?

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here we have a sister verse to John 6:44, which says that everyone that SEES the Son, and BELIEVES, has everlasting life. What is the condition to being drawn? Seeing.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Here we have the preceeding verse. Everyone that God has given to His son will not be lost. This IS preservation of the saints (call it perseverance if you want, but it's God's perseverance, not ours smile.gif )

How do we reconcile John 6:66 and John 6:39? If disciples are followers of Christ, (and there is no reason to doubt these men were not true believers, because the Bible calls them disciples, not professors or anything else like that), and none shall be lost, why do they depart?

The answer isn't in John chapter 6, but John 17 smile.gif

In fact, the entire chapter of John 17 gives the answer, so I will post only select verses, but if you think I am taking things out of context, please let me know smile.gif

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

The men that Jesus gave his words to regarding the kingdom, who were they? None other than the 12 disciples, including Judas. But Judas was not kept, as we know.

Why, John 17 has the answer, but first, look at verse 9

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Oh no, it seems we have a problem. Christ doesn't pray for the whole world, only the ones God has given him. It seems unconditional election is true. Well, it might be, if John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So all throughout 17, the ones God gave Christ were the 12, who believed on Him, who heard his word and kept it, and here Christ prays for all the people who will now recieve the word through them.

Why did the other disciples go back in John 6? Because they were NOT given to Jesus Christ by God. No arguements there. However, why were they not given. They obviously believed what Christ was saying. It's almost as though Christ sent them away by telling them that they were not given to him. We need to see the reason that men were given.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Now we are given the reason why Judas was not kept. To fulfill scripture. We are also given the reason why the others were given and kept.

Okay, here is how it goes

Prior to the cross, there was no heavenly salvation for most people (Enoch, Elijah and Moses seem to be the exception).

In order to go to paradise, they had to keep the law of God, given to them by the prophets. Rebellion lead to death. Repentance, Faith and Lawkeeping lead to life.

During this time, Christ is prophecied to come, to SAVE the people from their sins (they weren't being saved before, although they had a type of salvation - paradise).

Christ comes to earth to save sinners.

During his earthly ministry, God GIVES men to Christ. For what reason? John 17:12 has the answer. To fulfill scriptures.

Judas betrays Christ, Christ dies for sinners, and makes payment for the worlds sins, past, present and future.

Jesus rises from the dead. The payment for sin has been made. The scripture regarding salvation is fulfilled.

The OT saints now have the heavenly salvation that they were looking forward to. The NT saints have the blood of Jesus Christ NOW, to apply if they choose.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ now freely draws all men to himself.


OF COURSE - I realise there are problems with that above, and it would probably just be easier to show you John 6:45

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Anyone that hears the gospel of God, can come to Jesus Christ.

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