[katie ha-lakh]

Hi all,

Greenbear and I were wondering what the consensus was on this forum about the below passage found in 1 Timothy.

"9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

1 Timothy 2:9-15

[katie ha-lakh]

I would also like to add this similar passage to the discussion.

"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Corinthians 14:34,35

[greenbear]

This isn't greenbear's favorite topic in the Bible but it is an extremely important one. I am very interested in what everybody's convictions are. I guess one of the big issues would be does this commandment apply in official church services or anytime 2 or more are together in His name which would include this chatboard. Sister Katie, thanks for starting this thread.

Jen

The key to this is understanding and observing the CONTEXT of the passage. The context is the Corinthian church which was noted for the chaos and lack of ORDER that was rampant in that assembly (v. 33) and the result was mass confusion. Paul was actually concerned that new Christians or visitors would think they were insane:

23 "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

Because of this lack of order, things were becoming counter-productive, there was no edification.

26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

40 "Let all things be done decently and in order".

It is in THIS CONTEXT of the chaotic Corinthian church that Paul makes the statements about women, and so it is apparent that there were women who were driving much of this confusion, perhaps trying to lead the services or even preach and assume leadership roles (we still see this problem happening in some churches today).

However it should be noted that Paul ALSO offered a situation when MEN should be silent in the church:

28 "But if there be no interpreter, let HIM keep silence in the church..."

So we have to keep things in context.

[greenbear]

I want to clarify what I said above. I also believe those passages apply to a church assembly and they should definitely be followed by the church. Woman pastors are in rebellion against God as are their congregations. A woman should not usurp authority over the man or teach the man in the assembly. Women need to have a man as spiritual covering for their own protection. I believe it is for both a type, and that women are more easily swayed or deceived, and that women without spiritual covering are open targets for fallen angels, especially regarding false doctrines. So many "Christian" cults were started by women "prophets" or "teachers" who teach doctrines of demons and heresy and spiritism. Satan has a hay day with this type of rebellion and confusion.

So those passages aren't my least favorite parts of the Bible if correctly interpreted, in fact I am grateful that the Lord teaches us how to conduct ourselves and our affairs. Those passages become my least favorite when they are taken to mean that women are not allowed to study God's Word and actively participate in discussion with other believers, male and female. That would be a huge loss for me personally if those verses apply to any time christians gather informally (like this forum). With that said, I don't want to offend anybody on this board who has different convictions about the meaning of the above passages.

The Lord would have us submit ourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Although Paul is speaking about gentile christians eating meat sacrificed to idols, I think this principle holds for this situation as well:

1 Cor
8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Having given this topic some thought last night and this morning I don't forsee many people having a problem with female participation on the forum in all categories at least according to 1 Tim 2:9-15. I know men do like to get away from women sometimes!

This is my motto: Where I'm welcome is where I'll be.

[George]

RE: "the Place of a Woman "

Originally Posted by katie ha-lakh

Hi all,

Greenbear and I were wondering what the consensus was on this forum about the below passage found in 1 Timothy.

"9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

1 Timothy 2:9-15

Aloha sister katie ha-lakh,

I believe that rather than look for a "consensus" on this issue, we should be searching the Holy Scriptures to see WHAT God has to say about it. The following outline is the New Testament record on the Husband/Wife relationship - without ONE WORD of "comment" from yours truly:

THE NEW TESTAMENT RECORD OF THE HUSBAND & WIFE RELATIONSHIP

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO A HUSBAND

1 Corinthians 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

1 Corinthians 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO HUSBANDS

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Colossians 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO A MAN

1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt savethy wife?

1 Corinthians 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO MEN

1 Corinthians 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

Ephesians 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. Heloveth his wife loveth himself.

1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. that

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO A BROTHER

1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brotherwife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, lethim not put her away. hath a

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO A WIFE

1 Corinthians 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife duebenevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

1 Corinthians 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1 Corinthians 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1 Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husbandliveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO WIVES

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, asunto the Lord.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO A WOMAN

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the lawher husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, sheher husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to anotherman.

1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1 Timothy 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. to shall be called an adulteress: but if

COMMANDMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS TO WOMEN

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their ownhusbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

If anyone knows of any more pertinent verses in the New Testament that relate to this subject I would be happy to add them to this study.

[JOHN G]

1 Cor. 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

[katie ha-lakh]

I suppose, I should make my thoughts clear as Greenbear has made hers. Of course, I go to the Word before I go to anyone else (and after). When I said "consensus" I suppose I meant your interpretations of the Word...backed up with verses of course.

I understand that God loves both men and women and that we have different roles. I believe that women are not to be preaching. I do, however get confused (by the way, His Word is never confusing, but our own thoughts confuse us ) as to what my role is/should be.

I try to take the Bible very literally. When I read that women were to keep silence in the church, I became fearful that I would have to sign my way out after the services .

Then I thought, well, now that Christ has died, the temple is inside us and we can't be silent at all times so Paul must have simply meant that we couldn't preach or have authority over a man in the building where we gather to worship and we can still chat etc. afterward.

THEN I thought about the verse which speaks of asking our husbands at home if we were to learn something. I thought, this seems pretty clear that I should not talk to anyone inside the building, even about the service.

I dunno, talking about this again gets me all confused. AND on top of that, this summer, my employers might ask me to introduce pastors at the pulpit! I'm not comfortable with that. Isn't this what Paul is talking about? Please pray about this summer.

[George]

Originally Posted by katie ha-lakh

"I suppose, I should make my thoughts clear as Greenbear has made hers. Of course, I go to the Word before I go to anyone else (and after). When I said "consensus" I suppose I meant your interpretations of the Word...backed up with verses of course.

I understand that God loves both men and women and that we have different roles. I believe that women are not to be preaching. I do, however get confused (by the way, His Word is never confusing, but our own thoughts confuse us ) as to what my role is/should be.

I try to take the Bible very literally. When I read that women were to keep silence in the church, I became fearful that I would have to sign my way out after the services .

Then I thought, well, now that Christ has died, the temple is inside us and we can't be silent at all times so Paul must have simply meant that we couldn't preach or have authority over a man in the building where we gather to worship and we can still chat etc. afterward.

THEN I thought about the verse which speaks of asking our husbands at home if we were to learn something. I thought, this seems pretty clear that I should not talk to anyone inside the building, even about the service.

I dunno, talking about this again gets me all confused. AND on top of that, this summer, my employers might ask me to introduce pastors at the pulpit! I'm not comfortable with that. Isn't this what Paul is talking about? Please pray about this summer. "

Aloha sister Katie ha-lakh,

I have commented on this subject before, but I will try to address your specific concerns with this Post.

Just for clarification:The word “church” in the Bible describes an assembly of people – not a building.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

There are 3 basic “interpretations” for these verses:

1. Women are not to speak at all in a church (an assembly – not a building).

2. Women are not to preach or teach God’s word in a church (i.e. speak to the assembly of Christians in regards to preaching or teaching God’s word).

3. Women are not to speak in tongues at all in a church (an assembly – not a building).

In regards to #3 - the entire Book of 1 Corinthians mentions the tongue (or tongues) twenty two (22) times. Fifteen (15) of those times occurs in Chapter 14 (called the “tongues” Chapter of the Bible). So we can be sure of one thing – as far as “speaking” in tongues is concerned: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak”.

If you are familiar with the Charismatic (Pentecostal) churches, the vast majority of “tongues speaking” (in the churches) is done by women – in direct opposition to God’s commandment.

In regards to #2 – The Apostle Paul clearly stated:

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

These verses are not “hard” to understand. They may be “hard” for Western women “to take”, but they are NOT “hard” to understand.

As far as the Scriptures are concerned – the commandment is clear: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” In a Bible believing church (an assembly – not a building) – a woman is not to “teach”, or “usurp authority over” a man (or men).

I believe that a woman can do almost everything a man can do in a church (an assembly – not a building) she can pray, she can sing, she can praise God, she can say amen, etc. (because none of those things “usurp authority over the man”). What a woman is not allowed to do is to preach, or to teach - because both of those practices involve exercising “authority” over men.

In regards to #1 - It may be that that women are not to speak AT ALL in a church (I could be wrong in my understanding here). There have been churches in the past that have made this their practice. I believe the Amish (and possibly the Mennonites & Quakers) have followed this practice - which only goes to prove that observing strict “RULES” and “ORDINANCES” does not insure sound doctrine!

My understanding on this issue is that God does not treat saved women any different than saved men; except in this one area – in regards to women exercising authority over men (it’s out of God’s “order” of things – 1 Corinthians 11:3 & Ephesians 5:23).

Whenever I get to thinking that I am better than a woman (because I am a man) I think of those women who worshipped the Lord Jesus Christ and, with the exception of the Apostle John, had the courage to attend His crucifixion.

And in addition I am reminded of Fanny Crosby (blind from childhood), who is reported to have written approximately 6,000 Poems dedicated to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If you have ever sung a Hymn with the words written by Fanny Crosby you will know what I mean. If there is anything written that comes close to Scripture, the words that this woman wrote in honoring her Lord, come as close to Scripture as anything that I have ever read.

Now don’t you know, that when it comes to being “seated” at a “table” at the “Marriage Supper of The Lamb”, that that this woman is going to be a whole lot “closer” to the “Head table” (she may even be seated there), than I will be?

A woman can love God as much or more than a man; a woman can choose to obey God as much or more than a man; a woman can have as much or more “fruit” in her life as a man; a woman can perform as much or more “good works” as a man; a woman can pray, sing, and give praise to God as much or more than a man; - what a Christian woman is NOT “allowed” to do is – “exercise authority over the man”.

You would be surprised at how much “peace” there has been in our home (for 48 years), because my wife has “chosen” to obey this Scripture (99% of the time ).

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

God has blessed me with a wife, who is as close to the Scriptural definition of the “perfect wife” [Proverbs 31:10-31], that I have seen in 69 years of life. She has been a true “helpmeet” and a faithful “companion” to me throughout our life together. And the manner in which she has lived her life has been a true Biblical “testimony” of what a (Christian) woman; and a (Christian) mother; and a (Christian) wife should be - to her family; our friends; our neighbors, and to the world.

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

I did! And I have!

[kns215]

brother George

I am amazed how I get a lot of my questions answered here even before I ask them!