[Amanda S.]

My husband is teaching through I & II Corinthians on Wednesday nights and I was struck by the seeming harshness in the passage...Why if we were to not fellowship with a brother for any reason the world and sadly the brethren would certainly call us hateful and condemning...

But amidst the harshness is - that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It's not to be mean or to glory in a fallen brother, but it's for his own good.

Then I was a little frustrated that we are so apt to categorize sins...

Now fornication!? THAT's the big sin...Drunkard...that one too. But covetous?! Nope, never ever heard that a brother was "put away from" the brethren for being covetous...A railer? I've known quite a few in my lifetime...never once saw them turned away from fellowship.

Anyway, I certainly would feel unqualified to put away someone that was covetous!?

And does this only apply in the church? What about family? Having a couple of uncles that are fornicators and drunkards (at times) do I avoid eating with them at family get togethers and not keep company with them? They both claim salvation and 1 especially has a clear testimony of salvation but that is as far as it goes.

Just a few thoughts to start a discussion. Feel free to bring up anything from this chapter and discuss it.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Have you considered the historical aspect of what was going on in Corinth at the time and why Paul would be communicating as he did in 1 Corinthians?

There was a degree of pervasiveness of sin occurring in the church there that Paul needed to deal with. He had received communications about the situation and I think you need to consider the historical context. Your example of your wayward uncles might not be applicable unless you are implying (I did not detect this) that their behavior was a consistent pattern of fornication and drunkenness.

AMR

[Amanda S.]

AMR,

OK...I will look at the historical aspect. Great point.

As to my uncles...yes unfortunately it is a lifestyle for them...most of the time.

[chette777]

a consistent pattern of covetous life may be something like the person who is addicted to buying barbie dolls, or Beatles or Elvis memorabilia they just got to have all they can get. Or they are the type who has got to have the latest of every new gadget that comes along. their homes are full of dolls, Sesame street characters, or even a person who just loves cats tot he point of them filling their house with them.

Well I think you get the picture.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

My husband is teaching through I & II Corinthians on Wednesday nights and I was struck by the seeming harshness in the passage...Why if we were to not fellowship with a brother for any reason the world and sadly the brethren would certainly call us hateful and condemning...

But amidst the harshness is - that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It's not to be mean or to glory in a fallen brother, but it's for his own good.

Then I was a little frustrated that we are so apt to categorize sins...

Now fornication!? THAT's the big sin...Drunkard...that one too. But covetous?! Nope, never ever heard that a brother was "put away from" the brethren for being covetous...A railer? I've known quite a few in my lifetime...never once saw them turned away from fellowship.

Anyway, I certainly would feel unqualified to put away someone that was covetous!?

And does this only apply in the church? What about family? Having a couple of uncles that are fornicators and drunkards (at times) do I avoid eating with them at family get togethers and not keep company with them? They both claim salvation and 1 especially has a clear testimony of salvation but that is as far as it goes.

Just a few thoughts to start a discussion. Feel free to bring up anything from this chapter and discuss it.

1 Corinthians 5
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Paul's instructions is for us to not keep company with a brother who is caught up in these sins because it would be impossible to to separate from everyone in the world who was caught up in these things unless there was some way you could leave the world. As far as a situation like you described concerning your uncles I think that is left up to the discretion of you and your husband. If it were just you and your husband there would probably be no problem with the family togethers, but what about your children? If there is any way they could come in harm's way or under a negatice influence you might want to avoid the family eatings. Most likely though, these uncles aren't drinking and fornicating at the family get-togethers or even speaking of it so you would want to take advantage of being a Christian witness.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by chette777

a consistent pattern of covetous life may be something like the person who is addicted to buying barbie dolls, or Beatles or Elvis memorabilia they just got to have all they can get. Or they are the type who has got to have the latest of every new gadget that comes along. their homes are full of dolls, Sesame street characters, or even a person who just loves cats tot he point of them filling their house with them.

Well I think you get the picture.

Or indeed the old expression "Keeping up with the Jones's"
People focused on what they "Want", rather than what they "Need"

Proverbs 13:25 The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.

The simple fact is, that if you are covetous of worldly things, this in turn will draw you away from God and fellowship with him and indeed other Christians.
The truth is that only God can truly satisfy our needs, if we covet things of the world, satisfaction is only temporal, but with God we know that in him all our satisfaction rests.

Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 Corinthians 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

I may not have a lot of money , nor possesions, but I am certainly a rich man in the Lord as I have a gift no money can buy, eternal life through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

On the subject of the Post,
If a Brother or Sister is walking openly opposed to the Lord, (fornication, drunkenness as exampled) and glorying in the fact, or unrepentant in their sin, I believe that we should not fellowship with such a one that is so clearly indulging in sin and has no shame over it, however those who are struggling (and clearly so) with such sin, that genuinely feel remorse for their deeds, need Christian care and support to help them through, brotherly love must abound.
If the brethren in question don't care how their actions affect others and glory in their sin rather than glorying in the Lord, then I personally would choose to avoid that person (as and when it is possible) until they on the latter part be ashamed of their actions, but if that brother was so torn up by his actions and indeed the affect they had on OTHERS and needed help, well then of course by all means hold your hand out to that brother.

1 Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Finally may I give an example, a Brother attends a Church regularly, spends most of the service's staring inappropriately at a young sister, another mans wife, making comments that certainly aren't befitting a Christian man, and repeating this service after service, that man needs approached and warned scripturally of his offences and asked to stop, he wont, he continues to make many sisters in the Lord feel uncomfortable, as well as his brothers, yet he still wont stop the coveting, should that Brother be asked / made to leave for the sake of "others"?
I feel YES it is in such an example Biblical in regards to the posts heading.

[Amanda S.]

The comments you all are making are great!

As to the uncles, we are very cautious as you all mentioned and really have very little to do with them at all just because that is the nature of my extended family. We're just not a close knit family. I appreciate the words of wisdom concerning that though...they are the type that have little respect and will drink or say pretty much what they please with little regard for a Christian. I could argue that they aren't really even saved...but I won't for sake of this particular discussion...

I really was trying to give an example...Is this only in a body of believers (church) setting or do we carry this out to every believer type of question.

Great examples on the covetous brethren too. I just have never personally seen (or heard of) a brother put away for this. I am thinking of one man in particular who I certainly would label as covetous, but just because his coveteousness is more visible, how are we to judge? I guess we can only go on the fruits that we see. He is certainly a good brother in other aspects.
I see what you are saying though as to just because you covet in your Christian life here and there (as we are all wont to do at times) doesn't make it a pattern...a lifestyle. We all sin, but if there is a pattern of a particular sin then that would be a cause for concern.

But again, I have never seen this carried out except perhaps w/ fornication...

Can you imagine the fall-out in a church for confronting (certainly putting away and having no fellowship with!) the greatly loved youth pastor who is doing a fantastic job with the youth and the youth group is growing for his coveteousness and lavish spending!? I think your average church attender would say it wasn't our business...

On the subject of the Post,
If a Brother or Sister is walking openly opposed to the Lord, (fornication, drunkenness as exampled) and glorying in the fact, or unrepentant in their sin, I believe that we should not fellowship with such a one that is so clearly indulging in sin and has no shame over it, however those who are struggling (and clearly so) with such sin, that genuinely feel remorse for their deeds, need Christian care and support to help them through, brotherly love must abound.
If the brethren in question don't care how their actions affect others and glory in their sin rather than glorying in the Lord, then I personally would choose to avoid that person (as and when it is possible) until they on the latter part be ashamed of their actions, but if that brother was so torn up by his actions and indeed the affect they had on OTHERS and needed help, well then of course by all means hold your hand out to that brother.

Bro. Steve, I like the way you worded that. Certainly is a godly picture you presented.

And please, I would like to discuss any/all aspects of this chapter not just the examples I gave. If there is something you'd like to point out or comment on or something you've taught on I Cor. 5 I'd love to hear it.

[peopleoftheway]

Great examples on the covetous brethren too. I just have never personally seen (or heard of) a brother put away for this. I am thinking of one man in particular who I certainly would label as covetous, but just because his coveteousness is more visible, how are we to judge? I guess we can only go on the fruits that we see. He is certainly a good brother in other aspects.
I see what you are saying though as to just because you covet in your Christian life here and there (as we are all wont to do at times) doesn't make it a pattern...a lifestyle. We all sin, but if there is a pattern of a particular sin then that would be a cause for concern.

But again, I have never seen this carried out except perhaps w/ fornication..

.

Sister in most cases or similar to what I presented, a simple word of admonishment from another brother should suffice, if the brother who is being admonished is truly walking right with the Lord he will praise the Lord that by God's spirit and another brother in Christ, his actions have been brought to light and hopefully been addressed and corrected, this I am sure is the case 99% of the time (May I add this is in the scenario of a Church that isn't ecumenically compromised) however in the most extreme and perverse scenario where a man that calls himself a child of God, commits such horrible sins of fornication, adultery, lasciviousness, covetous and glories in them with no repentance, no remorse AND no thought for those who are "babes in Christ" or weak in faith, then for the sake of those mentioned that offender should be asked to leave unless they STOP what is hurting the brethren directly
Sadly in most churches that are ecumenically compromised, this just isn't the case and in many, sin is openly committed IN CHURCH and not addressed or admonished because of Humanistic reasoning and philosophy.

The bottom line is, all of us that are God's Children, are forgiven for our sins, but we must one day give account of the deeds done in the flesh, we must answer for things we have done that we KNOW by God's spirit are not righteous, we have only one Judge, we must strive to follow the Lord in EVERY aspect of our daily lives, when we become consumed with the "cares of this world" and the "lusts of this world" that is when our sin may cause another brother to stumble and fall and if we don't address it ourselves then God reserves every right to address it though another brother through his Holy written word.

Romans 14:11-13 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Ecclesiastes 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

[PaulB]

Hello again Amanda / Steve – you two always have a knack of making me hunger to turn to the Scriptures because of the way in which your sincere hunger comes through your posts!

Steve – I also agree with what you have said and the manner in which you have approached the subject.

Concerning your question Amanda it is a very good one! Where does a church draw the line or how is it possible to judge between the average church member concerning their private sins?

Here are my immediate thoughts on the chapter after just studying it (following a very long day at work!)

I think that a key point of the chapter is brought to attention right in the middle of it:

V6 “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

What this man had done was effecting the entire assembly and in such a way that its witness would have been ruined for good the “salt” was in danger of loosing its saviour!
Our Lord Jesus Himself also warned the disciples to:

Lk.12:1 “In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”

I believe that the danger spoken of here is the open willingness to tolerate known sin. The Corinthians were boasting in what had happened in their congregation and if it was not something that the world had knowledge of, it wasn’t far from being their public shame (thus shaming the name of the followers of Jesus Christ as a whole).

Now (like Steve just mentioned) it isn’t about someone who is struggling with a private sin, but something that will bring down the testimony of the name of the church. I believe that such an issue stems far beyond judging the private life of a fellow brother or sister, but acting swiftly in a way that sees beyond the individual and cares about the bigger picture.

And Paul takes this so seriously that he makes it clear that it is better to throw someone like that out of the church rather than to destroy its reputation as a whole.

The leaven of hypocrisy (i.e. pretence) is not to be tolerated amongst those who name the name of Jesus. Acts 5 makes this very clear, so much so that it says; V13 “And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.”

So, the way that I see it is that the church is to be more concerned about the magnification of the name of Jesus than it is about a “so-called” brother who has no concern for what he is doing to that precious name.

God bless – hope this helps

PaulB!

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Paul,

So, the way that I see it is that the church is to be more concerned about the magnification of the name of Jesus than it is about a “so-called” brother who has no concern for what he is doing to that precious name.

True, I follow your reasoning...I also think it is merciful to that brother as well because of this statement:

that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the brother stays in fellowship with his brethren and they accept him as they do a brother who is walking upright then he is not likely to repent and theoretically would get steeped in his sin.

I personally have seen this with people in my life. It salves their conscience to have a friend that is a Christian. Like "see she'll be friends with me, so I must not be so bad".......Does that make sense?