[PaulB]

Yesterday I was having a chat to an old friend and the subject arose about where Jesus went after He had died on the cross. I was wondering is there anyone out there who can help me understand this how I’m supposed to as I am having a difficult time putting it all together in my mind.
I am familiar with the concept that paradise is probably a section/realm within “the heart of the earth” but I am not fully sure where to stand on this. What are your ideas?

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Mt.12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Lk.23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Eph.4:8-9 “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”

Lk.23:46 “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

Jn.20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

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I know that this last reference is more than likely referring to His bodily ascension, but I thought that I would throw it in the mix just in case.

God bless

PaulB

[peopleoftheway]

Hi Brother

This Chart may help understand the following scripture
(Chart by Clarence Larkin, who's charts are a wonderful addition to the word of God for understanding dispensational and Biblical truth)

http://www.preservedwords.com/images/underworld.gif

If we go all the way back to 1st Samuel we can read that in summoning up Samuels spirit via a witch (who when Samuel appeared almost dies herself with shock and fright)

1 Samuel 28:12-15 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Here we can read that Samuel came from below (Paradise), so we can clearly see from scripture that the OT Saints died and went to Abraham's Bosom. (Luke 16: 19-31)

Lu*16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Lu*16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Lu*16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Lu*16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lu*16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu*16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu*16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Lu*16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Lu*16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Lu*16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Lu*16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Lu*16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Lu*16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

all those who died in the Lord in the old Testament went to paradise (in the earth), when Christ died on the cross he said to the penitent thief

"To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Luke 23:43
When he gave up the Ghost he descended into the "lower parts of the earth"

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

To release the OT saints from Abraham's bosom, and lead them to the third heaven (New Paradise)

Heavenly not Earthly

Along with the keys of Hell and of Death

Matthew 16:18-19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Christ came back with the keys seized, Paradise (earthly) locked and emptied of its inhabitants (OT saints) and ascended to the Paradise section of the Third Heaven

Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The latter scripture of course completely nullifies the roman catholic fantasy of purgatory

Hope this helps, that's my understanding of it, Larkins charts are a blessing and a wonderful accompaniment to the word of God.

[PaulB]

Hello People of the way!

It is nice to hear from someone (or a number of you!) who are not all that far away from me, as I do feel a little outside of the time-zone from the rest of the forum. I am situated just outside of Wigan in Lancashire (don’t know whether you are familiar with it?)

I have never been to our beautiful green country but have often wondered what kind of an experience it would be – it looks so tranquil and so “out of the traffic” – am I fantasising or is it like I imagine?

One of the things that has been running through my mind is - Are you a fellowship, a small group of believers or just a single person who is representing a number of folk? (I’m curious!)

Anyhow, thanks so much for you reply it is very interesting and - it seems to put a lot of things into place. I don’t know whether the lake of fire is in the heart of the earth (I could be wrong!) but I have always thought that once the earth and heaven have fled away that death & hell were cast into that lake.
But if you have any thoughts on this I would be very interested in hearing them though.

I am also curious as to whether you have managed to purchase a genuine 1769 PCE, as I haven’t a clue where to get hold of one. Even though the KJB that I have has kept most of the list that Bibleprotector has mentioned it has altered some of the words such as; ensample into example, Spirit into spirit (Gn.1). it has maintained the traditional English usage of honour rather than honor but 5 out of 10 doesn’t cut the mustard with me, I want what God has said!

The version that I own was published by Zondervan, it is a giant print edition (something that I truly need!) with no notes (just text) and I thought that I had the very words of God, that is, until I entered this forum. Now, not only am I without the genuine KJB, I don’t even know where I can get a copy! Have you any suggestions?

The Book shops that I know haven’t got a clue around here! (Help!)


God bless

And thanks for your response

PaulB

[peopleoftheway]

Hi Brother Paul

A few quick responses to your questions

"peopleoftheway" my nick is just "me" I read a quote somewhere a few weeks before I joined this forum which was in reference to a group of "Bible believers"
And the quote was

"We are a peopleoftheway, scripture never re-interpreted to suit our desires"

And hence the name I use here on the forums, my real name is Steve.
(I should really put that in my signature)


As for Ireland being a "green" country, well that depends on whereabouts you go really, its not any greener than the dales in England, where I live is just on the outskirts of Belfast in a town called Newtownabbey
Here is a photo of "Cave Hill" which I can see from outside my Bedroom window (Not this view mind you, more of a backdrop over an urban area)



As for the location of the lake of Fire, be it in the earth, out of the earth, outer darkness etc , it will be a terrible unimaginable place that many who know not God, will spend an eternity in agonising torment.

2nd Thessalonians 1:8, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

I have never really thought about this in great detail, I have heard speculation the the Dead Sea will be the lake of fire, the dead sea being part of the Jordan rift which is the worlds largest "faultline"

We read in scripture that...

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Located along Northern region of the dead sea, The punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah may have typified the FINAL punishment of the wicked in the Lake of Fire.

Where-ever its location may be, I praise and thank the Lord in heaven that It will not be my final destination, that my Brother, will be at the feet of my Blessed Saviour.

As for the PCE, I was sent one from a generous loving Brother from the US of A whom I love dearly in the Lord, I believe it may be the same PCE that you can purchase of Amazon (There is a link somewhere on the forum for it, I shall have a hunt for you)

You will find in this age of Biblical apostasy, going into a "Christian" book store and asking for a King James Bible, nevermind a PCE version will get you looks as if you had two heads and 3 eyes.

I have been fortunate and blessed throughout my Life to have always had a King James Bible, and have never even "dabbled" in the modern versions, they don't look like the Bible, read like the Bible or sound like the Bible.

I will have a look about for the PCE version for you

God Bless

And by the way, I have found your manner on the forums seasoned with salt and very refreshing, keep it up!

[George]

Aloha brother Paul,

When the Lord Jesus Christ died - His BODY went into the grave [Matthew27:59-60; Mark 15:45-46; Luke 2:52-53; John 19:38-42]; His SOUL went to Paradise [Luke 23:43; Ephesians 4:8-10]; and His SPIRIT went back to the Father [Luke 23:46; Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; John 19:30]

As far as excellent King James Bibles, you might want to check out "Allen's". This Bible Publisher (practically in your back yard - Scotland) - http://bibles-direct.com/ has beautifully Bound, High Quality King James Bibles (It is my understanding that they use the Cambridge text, and I believe that the quality of the binding, etc. is on the par with Cambridge). I have seen a couple of their different "styles" of King James Bibles and if I didn't already have my Cambridge Bibles I wouldn't hesitate to purchase an Allen Bible (King James "only" - of course )

[Luke]

I did a sermon on this last night Well, part of it was on this.

He went to hell, hades, sheol, the centre of the earth. And then he rose from the dead. He sees Mary, ascends to God, comes back down and sees Thomas.

Without going into a debate on whether Jesus suffered in hell, because I don't know, I know that when he ascended, he went into the NORTH. Straight up through the atmosphere, through the universe, parting the great deep, and into the most holy place, which is NORTH. He put the blood on the mercy seat, returned to earth, without blood (just flesh and bone, with open wounds), and appeared to the eleven again in the upper room where he lets Thomas touch him.

I'll post up my notes when I get home about the North and how it is frozen and surrounds the universe (it's not a literal direction, but is relative to us - UP).

[PaulB]

Thanks Steve, George & Luke – your responses have been very helpful as well as very encouraging.

Firstly, when people like me join a forum like this (after only being a KJB believer for about 4 years and new to the concept of forum life), it is always a jump in the dark when I post a forum, a link or a question. I do not know what potential reactions are heading my way or (if people agree with what I posts) am I simply repeating things that so many have heard a thousand times before!

So firstly, thanks Steve concerning your comment on my posts as this helps me to know that I am not stepping outside of the boundaries and angering people with what I am writing.

Secondly, all of your help is very much appreciated concerning the question that I raised because I think that you have all presented some very solid theology on the matter.

Luke, it’s good to hear that you are a preacher (my question was quite timely then?) – I can’t wait to read your notes!
Thanks also Steve & George concerning your advice about where I am able to purchase a PCE. You are right Steve – when you say that asking for any edition of the KJB is out of the norm!
People think that you are a deep theologian these days if you ask for “the message” paraphrase and will advise to you buy any translation before the good Old Faithful Authorised Version.

I can’t wait to get one though! The boarders of Scotland is about a 2 hour drive away from where I live – but that doesn’t stop them sending one to me via mail, so that is now my aim!
I can’t believe how hard it is getting to get hold of something that my country one prided itself in producing. I think that it would be easier to get hold of the book of Mormon, the Koran or the New World Translation before the PCE (I really hope and pray that they sell it there!).

While we are (sort of) on the subject of hell and suffering has any of you seen the testimony of Bill Wiese?

If not here is the link http://www.spiritlessons.com/

It is very powerful, he quotes continually from the KJB to prove the existence of hell (well, it wouldn’t be possible from the modern versions would it?

On a final note, please pray for a lady named Gloria I have been witnessing to her at work lately and I have left her with some good DVDs and tracts – she has an interest and is on the verge of going to a church to see what it is all about.

God bless

PaulB