[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

The fire and the worms, yes, the real hell is being out of God's presence for all eternity, never knowing the ultimate Good...

We who are saved understand the grim reality of what it would be like to be out of God's presence for all eternity, and never know the ultimate Good, but the unsaved could care less, that's partly why they're going to hell. They don't care to know the Lord or His goodness during their lives on earth, therefore it will be that way for them forever. If it wasn't for the suffering and torments of hell, the damned would be quite content and comfortable there I'm sure, they are no strangers to being separated from God.

[chette777]

I am not sure where you get the idea that those in the lake of fire will be out of God's presence when the scriptures say,

Rev 14:10, 11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

The Lamb is God

Originally Posted by chette777

I am not sure where you get the idea that those in the lake of fire will be out of God's presence when the scriptures say,

Rev 14:10, 11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

The Lamb is God

Chette are you sure that passage states they will be tormented in God's presence forever?

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Are you sure that passage states they will be tormented in God's presence forever?

That's a hard one to reconcile with the following verses of scripture:

"Depart from me" is not "in the presence of"...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The location of the Lamb in eternity is the new Jerusalem...

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Christ dwells in the light...

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The wicked are cast into outer darkness...

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Kiwi Christian]

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The first thing I notice when I read these verses in context is that these events takes place DURING the Tribulation. The tormenting in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb in verse 10 could be only during that specific time frame. Then in verse 11 it's "the smoke of their torment" which ascends for ever and ever, that doesn't have to mean they will be in the Lamb's presence for ever and ever.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

Then in verse 11 it's "the smoke of their torment" which ascends for ever and ever, that doesn't have to mean they will be in the Lamb's presence for ever and ever.

Bingo.
If I go out on the pool deck and observe my hamburgers on the grill at 7:30 p.m. then return to my living room at 7:45, the hamburgers have been grilled "in my presence," but that doesn't mean I have to keep watching them forever. It's a terrible illustration, but hey it's almost dinner time here.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

To me this nullifies faith, I don't believe God allows people to see & experience supernatural things that would cause them to believe in Him.

Hmmm, well I too am skeptical of most of these out-of-body claims, but that's a little too sweeping of a statement for my taste. You can debate this statement with Dr. Rawlings and Ruckman. I am not ready to say that NO ONE has ever experienced at least a passing glimpse or tiny slice of the supernatural, including hell.

After all, it was the testimony of the man who was clinically dead who convinced the physician to seek a deeper knowledge of God in the Bible. That is undeniable. There were no drugs involved in this death experience. In the end, the experience didn't REVEAL God, it simply revealed a literal place called hell. Neither the doctor nor the patient was seeking a sign, nor were either of them "searching" for God. But that fellow saw something very real after he was clinically dead, and that's exactly what Bro. Ruckman believes too. It's a powerful little book, written by a respected cardiologist and recommended by Ruckman.

See link below...

"This isn't one of those books written by some quack out in left field, this one is written by a doctor, and one who has brought the dead back to life on more than one occasion. Here in this shocking book, people who have died and been brought back to life give their accounts as to what happened to them on "The Other Side". There is a Heaven, and there is a Hell, and once you read the true accounts from these ordinary people, you'll understand why you need to make a decision concerning Jesus Christ. Many of the folks in this book detail the horrors of Hell , and many share the warm loving and peaceful experience of Heaven. I have bought a number of copies of this book, and each time I lend a copy to a friend, it is never seen again. After one reads it, they share it with another , and then another and so on. This book will make you stop and think about death and about the after life."
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deaths-.../dp/0553229702

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

I am not ready to say that NO ONE has ever experienced at least a passing glimpse or tiny slice of the supernatural, including hell.

I'm not ready to say that either brother (well, maybe about hell), but the catch phrase I mentioned is "that would cause them to believe". It just seems down right unfair to me that someone gets a glimpse of heaven or hell, then turns to God because of it, while everyone else is under the same rule of "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" John 20:29.

[chette777]

How about some Bible verses and not private interpretations.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I'm not ready to say that either brother (well, maybe about hell), but the catch phrase I mentioned is "that would cause them to believe". It just seems down right unfair to me that someone gets a glimpse of heaven or hell, then turns to God because of it, while everyone else is under the same rule of "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" John 20:29.

Is that a "rule" or merely a statement? I can see your point, but then God Himself has already given them very clear view of hell in His Holy Word, hasn't he? I think there is a chance that deep down, even the unsaved are actually somewhat aware of hell among other things...

"For the wrath of God is REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath SHEWED IT unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." Rom. 1:18-20

Originally Posted by chette777

How about some Bible verses and not private interpretations.

pffft, come on Chette, you never bothered to answer my question about the last verse you posted brother! How about engaging the conversation or stop being ugly. Now go back and reply to my post no. 83.