How about a doctor confirming this woman was healed of what they had clearly documented was previously wrong with her? Too many claims of healing, yet nothing to back it up except that the person temporarily felt better. Well, anyone with adrenaline or other body chemicals coursing through their system are going to feel better for a little while - but that is not healing. Healing is a specific medical problem cured completely. Having a warm feeling in a back that was sore that morning is not a healing. Having a finger grow back that was amputated, that is healing. Having sight restored is healing. Having documented cancer going away completely (not just in remission for a few days), that is healing. All of these can be confirmed medically - and not just by the patient's testimony after a service. I am sure they are still feeling the rush and thinking that they are healed, until they get wheeled back out of the church again in their wheelchairs or still hobbling on their crutches...

Originally Posted by jerry

How about a doctor confirming this woman was healed of what they had clearly documented was previously wrong with her? Too many claims of healing, yet nothing to back it up except that the person temporarily felt better. Well, anyone with adrenaline or other body chemicals coursing through their system are going to feel better for a little while - but that is not healing. Healing is a specific medical problem cured completely. Having a warm feeling in a back that was sore that morning is not a healing. Having a finger grow back that was amputated, that is healing. Having sight restored is healing. Having documented cancer going away completely (not just in remission for a few days), that is healing. All of these can be confirmed medically - and not just by the patient's testimony after a service. I am sure they are still feeling the rush and thinking that they are healed, until they get wheeled back out of the church again in their wheelchairs or still hobbling on their crutches...

I agree Jerry. We should be very discerning when it comes to signs and wonders in the end times.

From Way of life Encyclopedia, (I added the full scripture)
The signs and wonders spoken of for the last hours are deceiving signs. Consider some Scriptures:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:13-14 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

In light of these warnings it is crucial that the Christian be wary of any signs or wonders movement in these last hours. The signs and wonders movement prophesied in Scripture for the hours prior to Christ's return is one of demonic deception.

[Biblestudent]

I agree with Jerry, too. Reading in the book of Matthew, for example, we can see real healing of "ALL manner of sickness" and "ALL manner of diseases". I believe that, today, God hears our prayers, and He may take away or may not take away our thorns in the flesh; but God's grace is sufficient that no amount of physical healing can compare to eternal security.

You guys are inveterate. I'm wasting my time. Please feel free to say what you wish, but, any further discussion on my part concerning this matter is pointless. I believe I've made my points judiciously and I rest my case.

And, I might add, not just opposed to the explanations, but some seem genuinely hostile. Some people don't go to doctors who have claimed to be healed. Do we deny it because of no doctor proof? Did a doctor verify the woman healed with an issue of blood?

I've researched Oral Roberts (and I'm not justifying everything the man did, BTW) and found that in his early days, he had prayed for many sick people and God healed them and there was doctor verification on at least some. No Pentecostal who is right with God would ever say they themselves healed anyone. God is the healer. I myself had been healed of heart disease in 2004. But, I'm sure some would insist in Doctor verification. But, I, too will bow out graciously from this thread. The vast majority of people on this forum are anti-pentecostal. It's time to look at other issues and post there.

Atlas do you have to use the word that reminds me of doggie do-do on the ground? Our mouth should be clean not nasty. When we use slang words we are no better than those that use the actual "vulgar" word itself. Don't know if you realize what you are saying, but it's offensive.

Scripture is always the foundation, Beth, but the point is that in this case the scripture is ambiguous with respect to the later church's gifts. That happens to be the case in some parts of scripture. I guess you can always announce that you know the Bible better than your opponent and he is getting it wrong and that is that of course. But the only scripture that seems to me to solidly say the gifts were only for the apostolic generation is 2 Timothy 4:20 where Paul says he left Trophimus sick, since surely he would have healed him if he could have. Otherwise the scriptures used on both sides of this issue don't seem to me to be conclusive.

Hi Revangelist, of course your experience of that healing event seems conclusive, and such experiences are how the belief in the gifts for today keeps being accepted and promoted, but it's really the usual case of someone SAYING they got healed but there isn't any effort to investigate what happened after the fact. When people do investigate such instances the result has been universally that it wasn't a real healing. Beth may be right that women aren't allowed even to speak to give a work of prophecy or knowledge, so that may be a test here too, and I also agree with Jerry. But I have to say also that I think you've conducted yourself here with more true Christian spirit than most of your opponents, and that certainly includes myself.

Originally Posted by Connie

Scripture is always the foundation, Beth, but the point is that in this case the scripture is ambiguous with respect to the later church's gifts. That happens to be the case in some parts of scripture. I guess you can always announce that you know the Bible better than your opponent and he is getting it wrong and that is that of course. But the only scripture that seems to me to solidly say the gifts were only for the apostolic generation is 2 Timothy 4:20 where Paul says he left Trophimus sick, since surely he would have healed him if he could have. Otherwise the scriptures used on both sides of this issue don't seem to me to be conclusive.

It's not that I know the Bible better, it's that God's Word is always true. If we take isolated verses this can be ambiguous, but if you look at a topic and find every instance where this topic is mentioned, you will get a clear understanding of God's teaching on the topic. Anyone can do that, it doesn't matter how long you have studied the Bible. If you look back to the Way of Life Encyclopedia post you will see that it is already done for you. http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=51

If anyone can find a verse on tongues that was not mentioned in that article, I would be curious to know.

and the way we test the spirit is in evaluating the experience we compare to scripture and if the experience is not in line with scripture, we then know it is not from God. That's all I need to know.

I have to admit that as soon as I read the beginning of your post, I stopped.

Originally Posted by Connie

Just for the record, I think that this question can't be resolved Biblically,

Originally Posted by Connie

But I have to say also that I think you've conducted yourself here with more true Christian spirit than most of your opponents, and that certainly includes myself.

I think all in all this has been a very civil debate on both sides. That is why I continue. Do you have any examples of anyone not displaying a true Christian spirit?

I would certainly want to know if I wasn't showing a true Christian spirit.

You have to understand that a true Christian will defend the truth of God's Word, it's not always easy to point out error without offending someone. I also don't think that disagreeing with someone is not loving.

We all must balance truth and love and I know from experience this isn't always easy. I do try and want to be corrected by my brethren. iron sharpens iron!