[Forrest]

Hello Brother Chette. When you get a chance would you expound on my questions to you in post #64?

[chette777]

Forrest keep in mind the context of the chapter is faith.

the verse in you quetions states, As seeing him who is invisible. as seeing is a term used to discribe his faith. faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things unseen.

He could see the delieverance of the people as promised by faith, he knew God would fulfill his promise no matter what afflictions come upon him for his faith in Gods word. it is all about his faith not about physical fact of sight, but of spiritual sight.

what was his excersice of his faith (a work) in that they kept the PASSOVER. remember God told them to do this thing and they would live. what would happen if they hadn't? the firstborn of all Israel would of died too?

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

Forrest keep in mind the context of the chapter is faith.

the verse in you quetions states, As seeing him who is invisible. as seeing is a term used to discribe his faith. faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things unseen.

He could see the delieverance of the people as promised by faith, he knew God would fulfill his promise no matter what afflictions come upon him for his faith in Gods word. it is all about his faith not about physical fact of sight, but of spiritual sight.

what was his excersice of his faith (a work) in that they kept the PASSOVER. remember God told them to do this thing and they would live. what would happen if they hadn't? the firstborn of all Israel would of died too?

Genuine faith does indeed produce genuine works. I know faith is visible to others by works. I realize all in Hebrews 11 had works to accompany their faith. But they were deemed righteous because of their faith, not works. Right?

What I am really asking is why is the name "Christ" used in verse 26? Why not God?

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt...."

I'm trying to determine if Christ was known by Moses by divine revelation. (Not in the same way we know Him after the cross.) But did he know Christ and believe God's promise of a coming saviour? It seems that way to me, because Holy Scripture specifies Christ.

[George]

Originally Posted by chette777

Linda and BC,

BC added to the word in his post on new wine. whenever an addition to scripture is added that is a change in Gods word or a correction. go back to it and see for yourself. Even George mentions it. I said BC had done so to meet his own theology or as george put it his own Private interpretation.

click here http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...5&postcount=64

I like how he didn't admit he was wrong when I showed him a vese that had God giving a COMMANDMENT to Israel to buy wine and strong drink and to enjoy it. After BC said God never allowed his people to drink wine or starng drink. Duet is a true COMMANDMENT given by God for Israel once they were in the land if they could not make it to Jerusalem for the required feasts.

Proverbs is an instruction and we would all do well to heed that instruction. But whenyour husband insinuated I advocated drink of alcholic beverages he was insulting. And then saying if I tught what Gods word says that drunkeness is a sin. Ionly pointed out God never says drinking alcholic beerages or wine is a sin. he said drunkeness is a sin.

maybe you both are to ex drunks on a kick or something. but don't put words in our mouths.

I will not post with either of you again EVER!!!

Originally Posted by chette777

I did not say the Bible does not teach against drinking. what I said was the Bible does not call drinking a sin. Drunkenness is said to be a sin. please don't put words in people mouths, and don't try too say I advocate drinking because of that statement either.

Aloha brother Chette,

The Lord Jesus Christ has commanded us to: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." [John 7:24] By now you must see the "FUTILITY" in trying to deal with Christians like BC and LindaR.

Oh, and by the way BC and LindaR are married.”– although they were successful in keeping that fact from us for a while. BC”s Personal Testimony – from his only Thread:

“In December of 2004, God brought a very special woman into my life and on June 11th, 2005, we were married in a little church on a hill in New Market, Virginia"

{My perceptive wife picked up on that one long before I did!}

#1. LindaR has testified that she was married to a "drunk" for 20 years (and he died). Living with a "drunk" for 20 years could make any sane person hate all alcohol with a passion, and as such I can understand her hatred for all things connected with alcohol (my step-father was a "drunk" and died of a peptic ulcer).

#2. BC has testified that the mother of his son was killed by a "drunk driver" three days after his son's birth!

I can understand how BC and LindaR hate all alcohol (although there is no way that I can appreciate what they have gone through!). On the other hand, she and BC have taken a personal conviction and have "pushed it to the limit" and I do mean "LIMIT"! Changing the word of God to match a personal conviction is wrong - even if they have a "good" motive.

There is one thing that I notice about some of these Christians that come on this Forum and instantly engage in fierce debates, and shortly thereafter start slinging accusations around - nearly all of them have a deep seated animosity towards brother Peter Ruckman.

Notice the difference between two men who came on this Forum within a few days of each other:

Born Crucified: {Joined 10/02/08 > Threads = 1 (BC's "Intro") > Posts = 50 @ 4.92 Posts per day - {Remember what I've said about new-comers and numerous Posts? }
Biography: He gave it in his "introduction".
Location: N/A
Interests: N/A
Occupation: N/A


Vendetta Ride: {Joined 9/29/08 > Threads = 3 > Posts = 35 @ 2.71 Posts per day}
Biography: Received Christ August 1969; became Bible believer (AV1611) in 1983; graduated PBI 1989 (PBI = Pensacola Bible Institute)
Location: North Carolina
Interests: Bible study, gardening, writing, boxing, history
Occupation: Luke 19:13

Please take notice in the huge "difference" between the "attitude" and "conduct" of these two men:

"Vendetta Ride" has been a perfect "gentleman". He has been respectful; considerate; and gracious {not at all like me }. And, as of yet, he has tried to avoid any "controversy". (Strange behavior for someone who graduated from PBI - wouldn't you say? Why according to all of the Ruckman haters, all of us "Ruckmanites" are "foaming at the mouth" heretics and church dividers.

On the other hand - "Born Crucified". Has been both obnoxious and extremely irritating with his continual “rant” against brother Peter Ruckman, and some of the brethren on this Forum. {We have to ask ourselves: is this how Christian “brethren” are to conduct themselves? - Accusing the brethren? [Revelation 12:10] - I trow not!}

In his personal "Profile" (on the Forum) and in his only “Thread”, BC introduces himself as the “Rev. Ronald W. Robey” and gives us a short "biography" of his life.

For me the word "Reverend" already raises a {"Red flag" #1}. I despise "titles" amongst Christians; they are the "bane" of American Christianity (if you don't have a "Dr." before your name you can't possibly know what you are talking about! ).

I refuse to let anyone call me "pastor" (or "Reverend", etc.). Those of us who are called to be elders/pastors are no different than any other Christian men. Our "calling" may be different - but we aren't! There is no "Clergy/Laity" setup in the Bible when it comes to Christian churches, for we are "all brethren". [Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.]

Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Call me "brother", but please do not call me "Pastor" Anderson or "Reverend" Anderson, I am a man, like any other man - with the same faults and weaknesses as any other man. I am no better than any other Christian. As a matter of fact, when I look back over my 50 years of being a saved, born again child of God, I have to confess that I really am not much at all!

Back to "BC". Read BC's testimony. I believe that there are some things therein that raise more "red flags" (for me at least) and may explain why he is the way he is.

BC said:

"I gave my heart to Jesus Christ there in that dirty jail cell."

When I got saved - I didn't "give my heart to Jesus". I READ and HEARD the Gospel of Christ; and then I BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ; and then I RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. I DID NOT "GIVE MY HEART TO JESUS"! I didn’t “GIVE” the Lord Jesus Christ ANYTHING, when I got saved. However, HE GAVE ME “ETERNAL LIFE” when I received Him as my Saviour.

We can’t “GIVE” God anything! And I “cringe” every time I hear (or read) someone say that they “GAVE their heart to Jesus” – that’s NOT THE GOSPEL! {What would the Lord Jesus Christ want with my dirty, foul, and perverse heart? Hmmm?} {Red Flag #2}


BC said:

“At the age of 13 I moved to Pennsylvania with some Mennonite friends of mine. There I was made to go to church every Sunday which was an odd experience, seeing as it was a Mennonite community. I had been raised in the Assemblies of God movement.”

(From BC”s “religious background” it is obvious that he picked up a lot of “baggage” along the way (some of which he has yet to “jettison”) {“Red flag” #3}

BC said:

“I traveled with the circus for four years as an assistant animal trainer. During my first year in the circus I met and fell in love with one of the high wire walkers. Judy was also a contortionist. Her family was from South America.

In October of 1977 my son was born in JacksonvilleFlorida. Three days later, his mother was killed in a car accident when she was broadsided by a drunk driver. One the measly pay of $75 a week I could not take care of my child. And so, I gave him over to his grandparents and aunts that were with the circus. They left the circus that week for Judy's funeral, and I never saw them again. I've heard stories from other circus members who say that my son Juan is walking the high wire like his aunts and mother did.”

God has blessed my wife and I with 7 children (4 boys & 3 girls), and over the years there have been times that we have had a real struggle providing for, and training such a large family. But, God be praised, we always managed {always with His help}. I cannot (under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES) imagine GIVING UP anyone of our children (“gifts” from God) – just because of “hard times” and “financial difficulties” – can you? {Red Flag #4}

BC said:

“Upon leaving the circus in 1979, I was arrested in Manassas, Virginia and charged with grand larceny, a crime which I did not commit. I was convicted and sent to prison with a five-year sentence.

Prison was the best thing that could have happened to me here on this earth. For it was in that prison that I realized that I was lost and in need of a Savior. A born-again Jewish chaplain, Charles Steinberg, and a Pentecostal Evangelist, J. Robert Wyatt, would come to the jailhouse twice a week and share from the Word of God with those who were interested. For the first couple weeks, I was bitter. I would just sit in my cell not wanting to hear a thing. After a while, I decided I could not do anything else so I may as well participate in the Bible study. As I would dig in the Word the Spirit would convict me more and more. I gave my heart to Jesus Christ there in that dirty jail cell. With Brother Steinberg's help, I got into a correspondent's Bible study outside the jail. Three weeks later, I was sent to the prison to serve the rest of my sentence.”

Call me a “gnat strainer” but, there is no such thing as a: “born-again Jewish chaplain”. If he is born-again, then he no longer is a “Jewish” Chaplain; he is a born again Christian Chaplain - who once was a Jew! Why the emphasis on “Jewish”? I have been born again since October of 1958 – I have never referred to myself as a born-again Scots-Irish-English-Swedish-French Canadian-American Indian Christian or elder! {Imagine my children having to identify themselves as born again Scots-Irish-English-Swedish-French Canadian-American Indian - Filipino - Chinese, and Spanish Christians!}

[Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

Now that doesn’t deserve a “Red Flag”, but the “Pentecostal Evangelist” does {Red Flag #5}, and why is that? Because of BC’s own confession that when he got “saved”: “I gave my heart to Jesus Christ” {Red Flag #2}. Now don’t get me wrong – I am not saying BC is not saved (only God knows his heart), but what I am saying is that “giving your heart to Jesus” is NOT the Gospel!

BC said:

“Upon my release from prison, I continued in the Word of God and study. I went to live with my Pastor and stayed with him and his family for three and a half years. During that period, I attended minister’s meetings in Berkley Springs, West Virginia and Grantsville, Maryland twice a month.”

The question arises: What kind of “pastor” is “My Pastor” Hmmm? What kind of “minister’s meetings”? You see if BC were a bit freer with this personal information we might have been able to tell “where he was coming from” sooner. {Red Flag #5} After all: “Birds of a feather flock together”!

BC said:

“I have been preaching the gospel since my release from prison. God is so good.”

“I served as an assistant pastor in Manassas, Virginia for two years before moving to Greensboro, North Carolina where I opened a fellowship called Morning Star Fellowship. I pastured in North Carolina for 6 years until I had to step down due to health problems that put me in the wheelchair. Doctors at that time told me I would spend the rest of my life in that chair. What was happening was this… When I would stand up, my blood pressure would drop and I would pass out within 8 – 10 seconds. Doctors tried several different medicines to bring my BP up, but to no avail. After four months of being in the chair, trying to stand only to fall to the floor and have to be picked up again, I told the Lord that I did not want to be in that chair any more. I told Him that I could not stand on my own and was depending on Him to keep me up. I stood that day and have not been back in that chair but a couple times since then; and that was because I was needing rest and other chairs were taken. I still have problems with my health to this date, but God has brought me out of the chair. I can walk into the doctor’s office today and the blood pressure will be ‘astronomically low’, as one nurse put it. On the average, it is around 97/61. When they scratch their heads and say, ‘I don’t know how you are standing’, I tell them, ‘I know!’ I am able to witness God’s hand upon my life!.”

“I am not going to get into BC’s health problems here at all. We have several people on this Forum who are afflicted with some serious health problems and I pray for them often - that if God won’t heal them, then that they will have the grace to say: “His grace is sufficient for me”. We lost our oldest son (at 42 years of age) over four years ago to “health problems”, so I have some idea what it’s like.

However, my problem with BC is that no where’s does he say what kind of a “church” he pastored or what kind of a “church” he started. {Red Flag #6} Why not say so? Why keep it hidden?

The way that this stranger (BC) has come into our presence with his “personal agenda” and “attitude” is typical of modern day American Christians that are: “. . . proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." [1 Timothy 6:4-5]

I for one am going to obey the Scriptures and avoid BC. He is divisive, argumentive, accusatory, and there is absolutely no profit in trying to reason with him.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Genuine faith does indeed produce genuine works. I know faith is visible to others by works. I realize all in Hebrews 11 had works to accompany their faith. But they were deemed righteous because of their faith, not works. Right?

What I am really asking is why is the name "Christ" used in verse 26? Why not God?

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt...."

I'm trying to determine if Christ was known by Moses by divine revelation. (Not in the same way we know Him after the cross.) But did he know Christ and believe God's promise of a coming saviour? It seems that way to me, because Holy Scripture specifies Christ.

Of whom did Moses speak of in Deuteronomy 18:15-18?

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-18)

The "Prophet" is none other than Christ! I believe that Moses did know of Christ as the coming Messiah/Redeemer/Saviour.

George,

You are falsely judging us while posting John 7:24. How ironic!

Our stance has nothing to do with family members dying because of alcohol. As a matter of fact, I drank a few beers after the mother of my child was killed (before I was saved).

My stance on abstinence came after my Salvation experience and God's revealing sin in my life with less beer in a year than most people will drink in a two hour period.

God showed me through His Scripture that He demands abstinence.

As to Linda, her stance is based on Scripture as well.

So you have falsely judged us.

You also falsely judged in saying we have changed the Word of God. We have done no such thing. Those who claim that God condones alcohol in the life of His Children are the ones who change the Word.

Until you will see the truth though, you will continue to falsely judge those who are sharing the truth.

Another false judgment by you was the one saying I kept my marriage to LindaR from everyone. I did not keep my marriage secret. I posted that I had married in my testimony. Also, when asked, I did not deny it.


What would the Lord Jesus Christ want with your dirty, foul and perverse heart? How about to clean it up. He wants to take the stony heart and make it a heart of flesh again.

[Forrest]

Aren't these comments more applicable for the "New Wine" thread?

Brother (Bishop )George, please answer my previous post (#56) when you can.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

God showed me through His Scripture that He demands abstinence.

Or what? Now, don't get me wrong, I hate alcohol, and I don't drink it. I consider it sinful to drink. But what are the consequences of drinking it, for a saved person?

You say God demand's abstinence. What are the consequences if a Christian disobeys God and drinks alcohol, according to you (well, according to how you view the Bible).

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by LindaR

Of whom did Moses speak of in Deuteronomy 18:15-18?

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-18)

The "Prophet" is none other than Christ! I believe that Moses did know of Christ as the coming Messiah/Redeemer/Saviour.

Sister Linda, we look back with eyes of spiritual understanding; it seems so clear. What a gift! I wonder, though, how the people in that time understood it. Since faith "...is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", I assume they were redeemed like us. Believe the word!

Originally Posted by Forrest

Sister Linda, we look back with eyes of spiritual understanding; it seems so clear. What a gift! I wonder, though, how the people in that time understood it. Since faith "...is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", I assume they were redeemed like us. Believe the word!

Amen, Brother Forrest! So easily understood.