[chette777]

Originally Posted by stephanos

You get me wrong pbiwolski. I am slowly opening up to some of the dispensational teachings. What you fail to get about me is that I don't like being force fed. I like people who have a spirit of humilty who guide people to the answers so that they get the feeling of coming upon the answers themselves, instead of being told "these are the answers, believe or you're a heretic." Another thing you fail to realize about me is that I come from an Anabaptist background (Mennonite, Amish, Hutterite, Dunkard etc), and we generally don't agree with dispensationalism, and some more so than others. We've heard you guys throw your teachings down our throats before, and even though some of what you guys teach is indeed correct, we feel that there are errors in your so called "right" divisions (and we are not the only ones to have heard the teachings and to not agree). So, please, keep these things in mind when I voice my disagreement with some of the things being taught. Please don't assume that I've just arbitrarily decided against dispensationalism, and also grant me a little grace as I seek what you guys teach from those who don't have the "convert or take down" mentality.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

My dear Stephanos,

nobody was force feeding you. I mearly tried to answer a question of Gophgetter's, by first giving some exapmles on how to rightly divide. No one was twisting your arm you by your own free will looked at the post.

I simply showed how we rightly divided and showed by right division what the answers were. no one said beleive or your a heretic. no one in any way was throwing things down your thoat. there you go again interpreting with your ego and bitterness instead of reading the posts in grace.

no one in anyway is trying to convert you. I mean those of us who rightly divide are plain Christians trying to live the life God wants us to by the strength of the Holy Ghost. We share what we learned so others may grow to. If you are in error we are to tell you so and that is Biblical.

Do you like Charels Spergeon?

Spergeon said, He who does not borrow from the brains of others proves that he has not brains of his own.

[George]

Re: "gophgetter" & Heresy

Aloha all,

I haven’t finished my reply to “gophgetter’s” blasphemous heresy. I did a study on the subject of Eternal Salvation (Everlasting Life & Eternal Security) years ago, but upon review (a further search of the Scriptures), I have discovered far more verses than the 300 verses that I found in support of the doctrine of ETERNAL Security which I discovered in my first study. It may take a while to finish the study, but in the mean time I have found an excellent essay by Charles Spurgeon in regards to the subject. [underlines are mine - G.A.]

As far as I know, this is the first time I have posted something on this Forum that is not my own. I hesitate to cite anyone or anything other than the Holy Bible, but this small essay is so appropriate that I hope you will forbare.

From Charles Spurgeon’s Morning and Evening:

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

“God’s altar was built of unhewn stones, that no trace of human skill or labor might be seen upon it. Human wisdom delights to trim and arrange the doctrines of the cross into a system more artificial and more congenial with the depraved tastes of fallen nature; instead, however, of improving the gospel, carnal wisdom pollutes it, until it becomes another gospel, and not the truth of God at all. All alterations and amendments of the Lord’s own word are defilements and pollutions. The proud heart of man is very anxious to have a hand in the justification of the soul before God; preparations for Christ are dreamed of, humblings and repentings are trusted in, good works are cried up, natural ability is much vaunted, and by all means, the attempt is made to lift up human tools upon the divine altar.”

“It were well if sinners would remember that so far from perfecting the Saviour’s work, their Lord alone must be exalted in the work of the atonement, and not a single mark of man’s chisel or hammer will be endured. There is an inherent blasphemy in seeking to add to what Christ Jesus in His dying moments declared to finished, or to improve that in which the Lord Jehovah finds perfect satisfaction. Trembling sinner, away with thy tools, and fall upon thy knees in humble supplication; and accept the Lord Jesus to be the altar of thine atonement and rest in Him alone.”

“Many professors may take warning from this morning’s text as to the doctrines which they believe. There is among Christians far too much inclination to square and reconcile the truths of revelation; this is a form of irreverence and unbelief, let us strive against it and receive truth as we find it; rejoicing that the doctrines of the Word are unhewn stones, and so are all the more fit to build an altar for the Lord.”

[chette777]

Originally Posted by George

Re: "gophgetter" & Heresy

, ”

Here is one of the reason we find so many arguments about what the Bile teaches.

Thaks George that was a nice reading.

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother,

I appreciate your sentiments, but there are times when we must "contend" for the faith. I have been a member of this Forum for almost 7 months and during that time we have dealt with a number (approximately 12 or so) of "kooks", "Sophists", "blasphemers", "heretics" and "reprobates".

Although we are called to preach, teach, and to warn (for edification) - We are also called to admonish, reprove, and rebuke (for edification & correction).

I find it very instructive that since “gophgetter” joined our Forum that he has been the center of one “controversy” after another, and he has generated a great deal of strife, confusion and doubt {I wonder where THAT comes from?}

When he posted his first "Thread" on: "Who Was The First One to Teach 'Once Saved, always Saved'?" Under > AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine. He "insinuated" that those of us who believe in ETERNAL SALVATION (i.e. ETERNAL SECURITY) are False Prophets; False Teachers; and we have embraced a "damnable heresy" i.e. ETERNAL SALVATION! [The Accuser of the brethren - Revelation 12:10]

He then went on to state: Did you see the words "eternal life" (or even life) in the scripture verses "gophgetter" cited? Satan didn't promise them that they would have "Eternal Life" or "Everlasting Life" - he told them: "ye shall not surely die" (and he lied!). And so we have this stranger (a new-comer), "gophgetter", privately interpreting Scripture and making it say something that it didn't say (that is if words mean anything). "Gophgetter" ADDED to the words of God in order to PROVE his "false doctrine" i.e. damnable heresy!

"Gophgetter" continued on:
"Gophgetter" insults us by calling us "KIDS": ("Are ya ready kids?") I'm 68 years old {Saved for 50 years - preaching & teaching the Scripture of Truth for 40 years} I'm definitely NOT "a kid" by any stretch of the imagination. But that's not as important as the "damnable heresy" that he has embraced and is promoting: He stated that Satan . . . "He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life." "Gophgetter" is impugning the truthfulness and integrity of Almighty God and His Holy word! He is attributing the doctrine of Eternal Security to Satan! And he has testified that this doctrine (that most of us on this Forum believe) is a damnable heresy!
[1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.]

On three (3) occasions I have asked “gophgetter” to judge us, as to whether we are False Prophets and False Teachers and whether we have embraced a "damnable heresy" and he has ignored my inquiries. He refuses to "man up" and answer truthfully and testify to what he really believes about most of us, instead he ignores my inquiries and continues to "engage" some of the brethren in strifes and debate [2Corinthians 12:20]. All the while feigning "innocence" (WHO me? WHAT did I say? WHY are you so upset?).

The man is clearly a HERETIC (according to the Scriptures) and I for one will not "engage" him in any more conversations. [Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;] "Gophgetter" has gotten far more than just one or two "admonitions" from the brethren and he still persists with his false doctrine and heresy.

I shall have more to say about Eternal Salvation and Eternal Security in a later "Thread", until then I will make this observation about the kooks, Sophists, blasphemers, heretics and reprobates that have shown up on this Forum. They ALWAYS come with a personal "agenda", which means that they will have to post several "Threads" (Not Posts) in a short time in order to get across their perverse ideas. I have been a member of this Forum for nearly 7 Months (approximately 25 weeks) During that time I have posted seven (7) "Threads". "Gophgetter" has been a member of this Forum for a little over 2 weeks and he has already posted five (5) "Threads". (The more "Threads" in a short time is a sure "sign" of one of the above offenders).

Check out some of the other "old-timers" on this Forum and you will see that they are here to "edify" and be "edified". They are not here just to generate controversy, strife, and debate, and you can usually tell that by the number of "Threads" they have posted (over several months) that they are not trying to "dominate" the Forum, but are looking to edify and be edified. There are some really knowledgeable brethren on this Forum, most of whom are also striving to obey God's word. However, there are also some people who have not been saved for very long (and who may not be "grounded" in the faith) and we cannot allow "false doctrines" or "Heresies" to go unchallenged (for their benefit and edification). It is our duty to earnestly contend for the faith when those who would subvert and pervert God's Holy words join this Forum.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Brother George,

This post was not addressed to me but it was directed at me, so I would like to answer some of these accusations. You said that my first thread was "Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?". This is not true. My first thread was "Peculairities of the Bible" posted on 8-06-08. My second thread was "As the days of Noah were" posted on 8-09-08. "Who was the first one to teach Once saved, always saved" (my third thread) was posted on 8-10-08.

I don't know if you realize it or not but you are contradicting your self in the same post. First you say that I am calling you a false prophet, then you say that I'm not "man" enough to own up and call you a false prophet. Make up your mind brother. Which way is it?

As far as calling you a "kid", I apologized for this on the thread "Who was the first to teach once saved, always saved" on post #9. I also explained the situation that was going on at the time that influenced me to use that phrase. Let me be straight with you. I have offered my apology to you. If you can not find it in your heart to forgive me, then according to Jesus Himself, you are not forgiven.

Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You said that I am clearly a heretick and you lumped me in with reprobates and blasphemers. You also said that it is your duty to contend for the faith. If this is true, then you should have no problem answering the following questions. If I am a heretick, that means that I have said things that do not line up with sound doctrine, in other words, the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. I have posted these questions before but never got a straight answer. But since you obviously have the truth, you should be able to handle them. Here we go.

Question 1

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Is this verse written to believers? If so, why is Paul warning those who are saved and secure about the consequences of living after the flesh?

Question 2

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Is this verse written to believers? If so, why is James instructing believers to receive the engrafted word that is able to save their soul if their soul is already saved?

Question 3

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Is James addressing believers in the church? If so, why would he use the words "save a soul from death" if a believer has eternal life and can never lose it?

Question 4

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Is this written to believers who are saved? If so, why would Peter instruct us to make our calling and election sure, if it is already sure and we can do nothing to influence it, positive or negative?

Question 5

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Who are these sayings addressed to? Do they apply to us? If so, at what time? Before we get saved or after? What if we hold unforgiveness in our heart towards someone until the day we die? Can we really make heaven our home with unforgiven sin?

Here's the challenge George. If you cannot answer these questions directly and give scripture to support what you say, you have no right to call me a heretick or reprobate. If you can't answer these questions, then quit whining and hurling out unsupported accusations. I'm here because I love the truth. Not to debate with you. Debate is a work of the flesh and I am not here to glorify the flesh. I am here to glorify God and His word.

Peace

[Luke]

Hi Gophgetter, I will try to post this with more grace than I have done so previously.

You said above that you challenge us to find anything you saidthat does not line up with Jesus and the Apostles. If by that, you mean Jesus and the 12, then you'd be absolutely right. If the Books of the NT went like this

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews, James... etc etc

Then you would be absolutely right.

However, you are forgetting to rightly divide. The mystery of the revelation was given to Paul. His teaching is for this mystery age. The church age was not known about before Christ came. The doctrines for this age are within the Pauline epistles.

I noticed you quote Romans 8. That's true. If you live by the flesh, ye shall die. Then what? Die and go to hell? It doesn't say that. It just says die. Just like if ye live according to the spirit, ye shall live. Where? Here... on earth. Paul doesn't mention eternal life 5 verses either side. He mentions sonship, adoption. The entire chapter is on becoming more Christ-like in His power and faith, but there is no loss of salvation here.

The other verses you quote result in error because you have wrongly divided.

EDIT: It seems that whereever you have seen the word death, you think eternity in hell.

[chette777]

I hope Gophgetter wont mind my answering the same questions he asked Geo. I am not answering for George. but the answers are really clear to us who rightly divide.

Answer to Question 1: Paul was speaking to believer that they would indeed suffer early physical death if they continued in fleahly lusts and sins. see his teaching in 1 Corinthians 11:28-30 "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. they were in unconfessed and repented sinful activities and were taking the Lord cup in vain". All these are under the Gospel of Grace.

Answer to Question 2: James is speaking to beleivers under the Kingdom gospel in the preparation for the Kingdom in early acts and the Great Tribulation. during which time faith must have works the Kingdom Gospel. James big theme. .

Answer to Question 3: In the Kingdom is was the same as if a watchman failed to warn a person he was resposible for that mans blood with his own life. read Jerimiah. Even in this dispensation or age we should do our best to reach people with the Gospel. the you shall save a soul from death statement, well even James knew only Christ saves. but it is the duty of believer in that Age to help one another to live right because if they didn't have the works to prove their faith they were not going to heaven. again they are under the Kingdom Gospel found in the Gospel preparation for the kingdom that is at hand, and the tribulation.

Answer to Question 4: Peter is talking to beleivers under the Kingdom Gospel of faith plus works again like questions 1 and 2.

Answer to Questin 5: 1) we should as Christians strive to be at peace with all men. 2) we are commanded to forgive men as God has forgiven us for Christs sake. 3) unforgiveness will not keep any one in this age or dispensation from being saved seeing that is secured in Christ work not ours. Matthew falls under the Kingdom Gospel and need works to accompany faith. A teaching that is preparing the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites for the Kingdom Promise to David.

Learnig a proper way to rightly divide will clear up a whole lot of confusion in your teachings/sharings/understandings etc...
As George had shown in another post there are three application to all scripture but they can only fall under one of them, Historical, Spiritual, and Doctrinal. by learning which of your verse falls under for this age will help also clear up your confusion.

[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Hi Gophgetter, I will try to post this with more grace than I have done so previously.

You said above that you challenge us to find anything you saidthat does not line up with Jesus and the Apostles. If by that, you mean Jesus and the 12, then you'd be absolutely right. If the Books of the NT went like this

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews, James... etc etc

Then you would be absolutely right.

However, you are forgetting to rightly divide. The mystery of the revelation was given to Paul. His teaching is for this mystery age. The church age was not known about before Christ came. The doctrines for this age are within the Pauline epistles.

I noticed you quote Romans 8. That's true. If you live by the flesh, ye shall die. Then what? Die and go to hell? It doesn't say that. It just says die. Just like if ye live according to the spirit, ye shall live. Where? Here... on earth. Paul doesn't mention eternal life 5 verses either side. He mentions sonship, adoption. The entire chapter is on becoming more Christ-like in His power and faith, but there is no loss of salvation here.

The other verses you quote result in error because you have wrongly divided.

EDIT: It seems that whereever you have seen the word death, you think eternity in hell.

Aloha brother Luke,

I am "done" with "gophgetter". He cannot "bait" me with his Sophisticated questions or arguments. The man is not only a heretic - he is also a "Sophist" (the two usually go hand-in-hand).

However, I do appreciate you "answering" for me - since you were "dead-on" in your analysis. Have you ever considered this though? It is quite clear from "gophgetter's" Threads and Posts that he cannot "rightly divide the word of truth" and he refuses to receive instruction. Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. If God isn't giving him understanding, do you think that any of us on this Forum can? I trow not!

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

Please feel free to "answer for me" any time! I'm "finished" with "gophgetter" (it is impossible to "reason" with a sophist or a heretic).

Your answers to his juvenile challenge and questions were both succinct and appropriate. After dealing with "his kind" for 50 years, I have learned to cease striving and just avoid him (them).

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by George

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Amen Brother George, this is the best way. I see nothing that you need forgiveness for.
God Bless

PS I have been gleaming over your study on the heart on your site, only had a quick look but I must say I am looking forward to reading more.

In My Saviour's name , The LORD Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by chette777

I hope Gophgetter wont mind my answering the same questions he asked Geo. I am not answering for George. but the answers are really clear to us who rightly divide.

Answer to Question 1: Paul was speaking to believer that they would indeed suffer early physical death if they continued in fleahly lusts and sins. see his teaching in 1 Corinthians 11:28-30 "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. they were in unconfessed and repented sinful activities and were taking the Lord cup in vain". All these are under the Gospel of Grace.

Answer to Question 2: James is speaking to beleivers under the Kingdom gospel in the preparation for the Kingdom in early acts and the Great Tribulation. during which time faith must have works the Kingdom Gospel. James big theme. .

Answer to Question 3: In the Kingdom is was the same as if a watchman failed to warn a person he was resposible for that mans blood with his own life. read Jerimiah. Even in this dispensation or age we should do our best to reach people with the Gospel. the you shall save a soul from death statement, well even James knew only Christ saves. but it is the duty of believer in that Age to help one another to live right because if they didn't have the works to prove their faith they were not going to heaven. again they are under the Kingdom Gospel found in the Gospel preparation for the kingdom that is at hand, and the tribulation.

Answer to Question 4: Peter is talking to beleivers under the Kingdom Gospel of faith plus works again like questions 1 and 2.

Answer to Questin 5: 1) we should as Christians strive to be at peace with all men. 2) we are commanded to forgive men as God has forgiven us for Christs sake. 3) unforgiveness will not keep any one in this age or dispensation from being saved seeing that is secured in Christ work not ours. Matthew falls under the Kingdom Gospel and need works to accompany faith. A teaching that is preparing the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites for the Kingdom Promise to David.

Learnig a proper way to rightly divide will clear up a whole lot of confusion in your teachings/sharings/understandings etc...
As George had shown in another post there are three application to all scripture but they can only fall under one of them, Historical, Spiritual, and Doctrinal. by learning which of your verse falls under for this age will help also clear up your confusion.

Chette,

You said that the death that Paul was speaking of in Rom. 8:13 was speaking of physical death if they continued in fleshly lusts and sins. If he is speaking of physical death then he is also speaking of physical life when he said "but if you, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live". Do you really believe that Paul is teaching those in the church at Rome that they can live forever in the flesh? Paul is speaking of eternal life just as he is referring to eternal death if those believers live after the flesh. Why would Paul be warning them about physical death as a consequence, since all human beings face physical death, saved or unsaved? You can add the word "early" if you want to, but that is not rightly dividing the word, it is adding to the word.

Let me deal with your answers to questions #2,#3 and #4 together. You speak of a Gospel of Grace and a Kingdom Gospel. In other words, according to you, there are two different gospels. I don't know what book you got this from, but this idea is not found in the scriptures. There is not a gospel for the Jews and another gospel for the Gentiles. There is only one gospel. There is only one faith. The Gospel is the same for the Jew and Gentile. Consider the following verses.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

You will notice that even us Gentiles are built upon the foundation of the 12 apostles and the prophets. So much for this idea that the 12 apostles teachings were for the Jews and Paul's teachings were for the Gentiles. Do you guys actually believe that Paul's teachings contradict the 12 apostles teachings? Where you got this from, I have no idea, but one thing I do know. You didn't get it from the Bible. Chette, you have not answered these questions, you have explained them away. Why is it that when people who believe "once saved, always saved" are confronted with a scripture that clearly goes against this doctrine, they have to get their dictionaries, commentaries and books to explain these verses and call it "rightly dividing the word of truth"? But when you ask these same people about their favorite verses that they quote so often, they will tell you these verses mean exactly what they say. Sounds like convenient reasoning to me, not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Peace