[Renee]

BC,

Where do you find "look thou not"?

[chette777]

take it out of the refer and see how long it takes. it is part of the second law of thermal dynamics. they had no refers 2000 years ago. and even kept in the gorund at 52 degreess didn't stop it either.

when I talked of a little poison I am talking about your mixing scripture out of context. you see you even took my words out of their context.

end of subject for me.

[Renee]

[QUOTE]It is quite obvious that if there is private interpretation going on it is not from me, nor is it from my wife. Look thou not means look thou not. It does not mean "drink but don't get drunk."[/QUOTE]

BC, is Linda R your wife?

Renee

Originally Posted by chette777

take it out of the refer and see how long it takes. it is part of the second law of thermal dynamics. they had no refers 2000 years ago. and even kept in the gorund at 52 degreess didn't stop it either.

when I talked of a little poison I am talking about your mixing scripture out of context. you see you even took my words out of their context.

end of subject for me.

History records them keeping wine from fermenting by four different methods. One of which was by sinking it in a 'cold pond' and leaving it for 30 days. -- Pliny; On Agriculture; 1st Century AD. Pliny stated that if one preserved the unfermented wine in this manner it would keep fresh for up to a year. This is proof that fresh non fermented wine was indeed available even when grapes were not in harvest!

According to both history and the Word of God, they did indeed have refrigeration... contrary what many may think.

Look thou not is in Proverbs 23:31. A clear command to abstinence.

Yes, Linda is my wife.

[chette777]

not every one has a cold pond in those days either.

take your juice out of the refer and write me back in 30 days and tell me it is not fermenting(you would be lying if you did).

no one is arguing about abstenance.

it is your misuse of scripture to enforce it that trobles us.

Actually, if I took it out and left it for 30 days it would still not ferment. When I sealed it, I removed all the air from the container (as prescribed in one of the methods of preservation), I boiled the juice prior to that (another method of preservation). The yeast that causes grape juice to ferment is killed when it reaches a temperature of 176° Fahrenheit. The boiling point of grape juice is 212° Fahrenheit... well above the temperature required to kill the ferment yeast.

So there is certainly no way for it to ferment without the yeast present in it.

And historical records from Pliny, Plutarch, Columella, Aristotles, and other historians of the first Century AD and before can be found in your local library to prove that these methods did indeed keep the grape wine from fermenting. Pliny even recorded that Jews of that day preferred wines that would not intoxicate and considered those who drank the intoxicating wines to be barbarians.

Columella recorded a wine called Lesbian that did not have the ability to intoxicate.

Too many historical accounts to just brush aside because modern dictionaries have changed the meanings of wine to only intoxicating drinks.

[chette777]

go ahead and leave it sealed just remove it from teh refer. I had a hermeticaly sealed bottle of grape juice for two years at room tempratures (Philippine room temps are warmer) later when I opened it it taste like wine not juice it had fermented and its alcohol rate was very low. it was still drinkable but it didn't taste like grape juice any more it taste like red wine. so see you can argue all you want I know I am right by virtue of experience.

by the way most grapes carry their own yeast on their skin. it cannot be fully removed so even small mounts get into the juice. I made wine both organic and commercial in my BC days.

Originally Posted by chette777

go ahead and leave it sealed just remove it from teh refer. I had a hermeticaly sealed bottle of grape juice for two years at room tempratures (Philippine room temps are warmer) later when I opened it it taste like wine not juice it had fermented and its alcohol rate was very low. it was still drinkable but it didn't taste like grape juice any more it taste like red wine. so see you can argue all you want I know I am right by virtue of experience.

by the way most grapes carry their own yeast on their skin. it cannot be fully removed so even small mounts get into the juice. I made wine both organic and commercial in my BC days.

When the grape juice is boiled, it kills the yeast. even the yeast that was on the skin.

As to your bottle of grape juice, it was probably not boiled and had some air in the bottle. If all air is exhaled from the bottle, historians record it will not ferment. I will believe the historians who saw the preservation processes followed first-hand.

The fact that the juice was boiled and put into containers while the temperature was still above 176° and the air completely removed from the container prior to its being sealed ensures it will not ferment.

I have corresponded with chemical scientists who have verified that this ensures the arrest of fermentation. If there is no active yeast present (there isn't, it was killed during the boiling process), the wine cannot ferment.

It may also interest you to know that napa valley vintners state that they kill off the natural yeast by adding their own yeasts to make wine... as do most winemaking companies.

They affirm that the grape juices, if left to ferment on their own, will turn to vinegar in a days time. Man must intervene in the winemaking process.

Even homemade wines require man to add ingredients and to monitor the sugar and yeast levels.

Natural fermentation is not that which produces the alcohol so many put to others lips, but rather vinegar.