[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Brandon, exactly when do the teaching of Jesus in Matt 5-7 take effect then?

First, allow me to plead that I do not have all the answers. Only hyper-dispensationalists have it all worked out.

It's the gospel of the kingdom, which Israel rejected but will eventually come to pass. The preaching of the Kingdom applies directly to the Kingdom. The world is going to see that Kingdom one day!

"Blessed are" is present tense, so was this only for the disciples who followed Jesus during His earthly ministry?

Firstly, I am not saying there is no application to us. Secondly, the phrase "blessed are" is also used in Luke 12:37-38 clearly in reference to something in the future.

Are you saying that Jesus was NOT instructing us today to:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Yes, I am saying this does not apply to me. What Paul says applies to me:

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Obviously when we work we "take thought" for our livelihoods. Part of the reason I work is to provide substance for my family and myself. Clearly this is not in accordance with Mt 6:25 (unless you want to explain to me how I can work for a living without taking thought of it), but it is not sin, since Paul clearly commands that people who are unwilling to work should not be fed.

I agree there is a non-literal application of Matthew 6 for me, but "take no thought" is quite literal, isn't it?

[Brother Tim]

Brandon, I thought you knew everything!

Seriously, Bro, Don't tell me that your spirit does not understand that "take no thought" when taken in context with the whole chapter means that we are not to be controlled by the worries of this world. I have lived my entire adult life serving Christ as my master, trusting in Him to supply my needs as He sees fit. I have claimed this chapter and have preached it for 30+ years. My life is evidence that God provides. "All these things" have been added to me and my family since my ministry began! Now I am told that this command and its related promise are not mine to claim?! Yes, I work. That is part of God's providence! I have done everything from flip burgers to land clearing. I have been in the computer industry from the time the the TRS-80 (Model 1!) was the PC. I now am a bookkeeper after I leave the church every day. In all this, I have never been without, and I have never feared that I would be without, because of Matthew 6. My kids never missed a meal. The 2 out of the 4 that wanted to attend college finished with no debt. DON'T TELL ME that only the Jews can claim this promise. AIN'T HAPPENIN'!!

I think that "D"ispensationalists have completely misunderstood what "d"ispensation is really all about. Hint: What is the root word for dispensation? - Dispense ... to disperse or to pass out. The "dispensation of grace" referred by Paul is the special grace given TO HIM to be the one responsible to carry out his ministry as the apostle to the Gentiles. It is not the signal of a new era within the timeline of God's plan.

[chette777]

Renee,

Acts 15 is the ordenances given by letter by Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles. these things are restated Old Testament commandmets for today. No one but the Holy Ghost can inforce them upon us. that is something the Jerusalem council knew. that is why they worded it so.

I would submit as much a s possible to Acts 15. for example a dinner held in honor of a superstar Actor, or Politician, nobel prize winner could be considered meats offered to Idols today, strangled animals blood remains in the meat of them, fornication is obvious Paul tells Christians constantly to abstain from that. also here in the Philippines they eat a dish of cooked pork blood (nasty stuff).

[chette777]

Jeff..falwn,

yes bro I am a pre-millenial return of Christ beleiver, and pre-tribulational gathering of the Body of christ to Himself in heaven. also I beleive the KJV is without errors, whole and complete word of God preserved for English speaking people of the last days

Hey Aj, I have something for you to think of.

Let's say for a minute that you have a son. (I don't know if you do or not, im using this to illustrate something to you.) His your only son and you love him with all your heart and you plan on giving him every thing that you have. Now let say your son joins the Marines, a war starts and he willingly goes to fight so that you don't have to. Now lets say while he is fighting the good fight a sniper shoots him and he dies. Now when you here of it while you are sad that he died but you are proud that he died for you, and your country.
Now lets say you are at the funeral and some jerk starts making fun of your son, he calls him baby killer, and all sorts of things that simply are not true.
Wouldn't that upset you; yea you’d would probably give the guy a fat lip at the very least.
Now take that and compare that to a Holy and Righteous God, who gave his only begotten Son, allowed him to become sin and die for the sins of mankind. And then some one lives his whole life blaspheming God's son, Calling him a liar and ignoring his sacrifice, you gonna tell me that God will just let that person into heaven without regard for his son the Lord Jesus? >>>Josh

Josh, what was the purpose for Jesus’ sacrifice?

The purpose was to eliminate the law that kills to the grace that gives life.

Solely on that note is mankind saved.

Behavior is a question of blessings and cursing.

“Into heaven”… is a term to denote a person having access to the new life in Jesus as heaven on earth!
In other words, God (Heaven) backs His word in His promises to us (earthly) as in “heaven on earth”!

That’s impossible, that would say that the Lord Jesus really didn't need to die, cause he was just going to let unrepentant Murderers, Child Perverts into heaven.>>>Josh

The soul of mankind is what Jesus came to save, not our works. Our works do absolutely nothing towards gaining salvation.

The good works belong only to God and it is by His good works (Jesus) that we have been granted (Gifted) salvation.

How could any of us taken any credit for it; by our good works?

God Is just, he does not tolerate sin, the only reason that we can come to him his because of his son.>>>Josh

That is absolutely correct, and that is why we pay as we go.

Remember, God will destroy his enemies, Paul said Phili 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)Ps 2:2-5 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.>>>Josh

Yes, again, evil behavior is dealt with as we go and God may or may not cut us off early from the land of the living.

The power of the will of mankind is conquered by Jesus, therefore, it no longer can hold us separate from God.

We can, however hold ourselves separate from God by our own will.

Aj, you can believe whatever you want to believe, if you want to believe that elephants can fly, that’s up to you, its a free country.
If you wasn’t to believe that even the most worst unrepentant sinner will get into heaven while rejecting the only begotten son of God who gave his life for all man, you may its your life.>>>Josh

Are you forgetting what saves us? Is it our good works? Our evil works? Well, whose works than, are we saved by?
If by Christ’s works, then what have we to do with it? Absolutely nothing for it is a gift!

Now, if we don’t allow God in Jesus to reign in our hearts, we are doomed to suffer in the flesh.

Look at the works of God for our understanding.

It is not wise to be teaching others, especially lost people that they need not to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because hell is not real and God will let them into heaven regardless of them believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hell is real, very real, and you can either let the Lord Jesus Christ pay for your sins on his cross, or you can spend eternity paying for your sins.>>>Josh

Josh, I thank you for the admonition, and I fully expect it. I don’t know how else to state it without seeming to be more enlightened than some on the word of God, but I see things quite differently which give nothing but glory an honor to God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

God did work with a purpose and in which we interpret it without clear understanding, giving reason to “We know not what we do”.

But if we do it with hope of God in our hearts, then even if we don’t understand it, we are covered by the blood of Jesus.

Peace>>>AJ


__________________

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Seriously, Bro, Don't tell me that your spirit does not understand that "take no thought" when taken in context with the whole chapter means that we are not to be controlled by the worries of this world.

I understand this is the proper way to apply it spiritually to me.

But as you pointed out, the early church in Jerusalem took this very literally (and properly so) -- so literally that Peter literally had no money (Acts 3:6). This is the same setup that had people dropping dead for lying, and people literally selling everything they had.

Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Do you practice this? They certainly didn't take those commands in anything less than a literal fashion. By what authority do you not practice this?

It is in fact wrong to do this now. The conduct of the church in early Acts is totally contrary to Paul's commands:

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

2 Corinthians 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Unless we recognize that Paul was indeed teaching something new, there is no getting around these contradictions.

I am simply not satisfied with "spiritualizing away" entire passages of Scripture that are delivered in a very literal fashion.

I think that "D"ispensationalists have completely misunderstood what "d"ispensation is really all about. Hint: What is the root word for dispensation? - Dispense ... to disperse or to pass out. The "dispensation of grace" referred by Paul is the special grace given TO HIM to be the one responsible to carry out his ministry as the apostle to the Gentiles. It is not the signal of a new era within the timeline of God's plan.

That's not what Paul said!

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

(Wow, look at what Paul claimed: HE laid the foundation, which others build upon. Nobody else built the foundation! Did that foundation exist before Paul laid it? How could Paul claim to lay it if it did? And who dares claim to be laying new foundations after Paul, since Paul said we are to build on THAT foundation, not new ones (later verses in the passage)?)

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

(Wow, another claim -- in Paul FIRST. That's what he said. Not me!)

Again and again Paul calls his Gospel (and he claims to own it) a mystery and hidden and it was for him to reveal it.

“But as you pointed out, the early church in Jerusalem took this very literally”…>>>Diligent

If we can understand the conditions that were in place we can understand much about the reality and the spirituality of many of the things that were said.

I mean, there was a radical change from a Jewish traditional belief and practices to that of a new belief and that new belief had no foundation for believers to stand on.

Consider the early church a baby spiritually, that must grow amidst the world of unbelief, and must struggle to find what it is that would stir them straight.

Paul, I believe gave advice based on what God had revealed to him as grounds by which this young spiritual baby could be protected by any wind of doctrine that might raise its head ad deceive.

Because the beginnings were but a small group and the conditions were of dangerous times, the group was to cling tighter as one unit.

Today, the same applies, but in many different groups, all with sincere intentions.

As for assumed contradictions, Paul was at odds to describe the depth of Gods revelations in simple terms to where these folks making a radical change could understand the new.

The church today, I mean the body of believers, not denominations, is way more advanced in knowledge and experience.

More mature in its understandings of Gods word.

Dispensation of Grace meant a new message to the new church as extrapolated in that verses you quoted: Ephesians 3:1-5.

I can tell you that when I was a child, I understood as a child, but now that I am older, I understand thing allot differently, to the glory of God.


Peace>>>AJ

[George]

Aloha Brother Tim,

Re: Your latest posts this thread > Doctrine > "Please explain dispensationalism to me"

I understand your “reluctance” to chop up the word of God – and possibly make it “of none effect”, but we are commanded to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is not an “optional request”, it is a commandment given to Paul (by God) to pass on to Timothy (a man called of God to be an “evangelist”), who was called of God to teach and preach the scriptures. As such, all Christians (especially those men who are called of God to preach & teach the scriptures), are obligated to rightly divide “the word of truth”. That is, we have a duty and responsibility to God to obey Him, as to the manner and method we employ in the course of our studies.

I agree with your premise: that all (or almost all) of us who have embraced at least some form of “Dispensationalism” have learned about it from other men. And I, like you, am extremely wary of men's “traditions” and adding to, or subtracting from the word of God (As you should know by my posts on this Forum).

Having said that, I cannot just throw out “Dispensationalism” or “rightly dividing”, just because I learned about it from other men.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

For example: In 1958, at the age of 18 (when I began reading the King James Bible for the first time in my life) after reading Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes - I went from being “agnostic” to believing that there was a God, and That God was THE GOD of the scriptures. However, I couldn't (or didn't) “figure out” how to get saved until the Lord brought some other Christian service men across my path (The “Navigators”), and they showed me why and how I must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ“ and His finished work on Calvary - that is: I must be born again” in order to obtain eternal life.

What would have happened if I had ignored or rejected their testimony – because it came from men? Of course there is no way of knowing what “might” of happened – but I hope you see my point. Although I am highly suspicious of men and the “traditions” of men, I do not reject all that other Christian men have to offer, because some of it may be “true”, since I know that God's method of spreading His word is through men (“faithful men” - called by Him).

There are so many different “Dispensational” teachings, methods, and “constructs” that I can't blame you for bring skeptical. On the other hand we are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth, so we must not throw out the baby with the bath water.

At this time I will not go into the different “Dispensations”, instead I will ask you to give me an explanation for some obvious differences (in instructions, gifts, & powers given to God's servants) in the scriptures. Confining my questions to the New Testament only:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where..

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

1. Do we preach and teach these things as being applicable to the New Testament church for today?
2. Do we go out two by two?
3. Are we PROHIBITED from going to the “Gentiles” or the “Samaritans”?
4. Are we to go to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” ONLY?
5. Do we “preach” that the kingdom of heaven or of God is at hand?
6. Are we PROHIBITED from Providing neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in our purses?
7. Are we PROHIBITED from having scrip for our journey, or two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat?
8. Do we have “POWER to: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils today?
9. Do we HEAL everyone - everywhere we go today?
10. Do we have POWER & AUTHORITY over devils today?
11. Are devils SUBJECT unto us through the Lord Jesus Christ's Name today?
12. Are we to “salute no man by the way” today?
13. Do we have POWER to tread on serpents & scorpions without harm to us today?
14. Do we have all POWER over the enemy today?
15. Is it true that as we are going about preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” that: “nothing shall by any means hurt you”.- TODAY?

Do you see the problem? If you don't rightly divide the word of truth – you can not make “sense” of the scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All Scripture has three (3) Applications:

1. HISTORICAL
2. SPIRITUAL
3. DOCTRINAL

And it is up to us (those of us who study the scriptures) to rightly divide the word of God and make the “right” application - and that is where “rightly dividing” comes in (which includes “moderate” Dispensationalism).

To say, like some hyper-dispensationalists do, that a particular scripture is not FOR us is an error. For ALL scripture is for us; its ALL profitable; its ALL good for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction – its just not ALL directed AT us; its not ALL “applicable” TO us, as the forgoing verses clearly demonstrate.

The following verses demonstrate even further, that circumstances change – that God requires different responses from us dependent upon His will for His people at different times, or how else can you explain the instructions of the Lord to His disciples late in His ministry, when He was ready to be offered up for the sins of the world?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Do you notice that these instructions are just exactly the OPPOSITE from those He gave near the beginning of His ministry? Why the difference? What had changed?

Can you not see that all of these instructions (both at the beginning and at the end of the Lord's ministry) were specific to the 12 Apostles and then the 70 Disciples (Historically); and that those instructions were applicable only to them at that specific time (Doctrinally)? If they weren't - why aren't any of the signs and miracles following those of us who are preaching the "gospel" today? (That's one of the "problems" that Charismatics have today)

This is just a microcosm of the challenges that “rightly dividing the word of truth” present, but a challenge we are supposed to meet by following the Lord's instructions given in His Holy Scriptures, as to "how" we are to study His Holy word.

In trying to rightly divide the word of God, we could do this kind of exegesis throughout the entire New Testament. It's hard work and some of it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to determine. That is why - if God doesn't show me something, I often just "let it go", rather than make a verse (or verses) fit some preconceived idea I may have about some doctrine.

George, well written!

I believe that what is key in understanding what Jesus said prior to and after the cross is because nothing had been fulfilled.

After the fulfilment of Prophecy by Jesus, Mankind is liberated from all things as were before, that is, if one would find God in Jesus and latch on to Him.

You and I and many of us are privileged to know Jesus as Savior, but there are those out there in the world who have religion, but don't know Jesus as Savior.

For them Christ died for, and the onus is on us to declare Gods righteousness in Jesus to as many as we can.

To rightly divide the word is to understand Gods love for all mankind, and that we having been given the responsibility to declare the love of God to them in word and action.

What we have become instead is segregationists, because we divide the word to mean that only under certain circumstances God will honor them.

That being the case, we all need some maturing.

Peace>>>AJ

[Brother Tim]

George, I will attempt to answer your questions, however, I am preparing for VBS this next week and have much to do. It may take some time to respond completely.

To begin:

1. Do we preach and teach these things as being applicable to the New Testament church for today?

As with all Scripture, these verses and the events surrounding them must be taken in context. Of course, instructions given under specific circumstances must not be stretched beyond their boundaries. I am not in any way saying that there are not time periods in the Scriptures where God operated in different ways to accomplish His purposes. More later on this point.

2. Do we go out two by two?

I think that this is one of the most common methods for Baptist church visitation programs today. Maybe it is different over there in your isolated "paradise".

Must go.
Your brother,
Tim Keyes