[chette777]

yeah Greenbear, not even Tbones saw that one. or at least he never mentioned in in all his list of supporting verse. I ran a complete cross references and found it in Zec. which convinced me more than any others.

Both men Elijah and Moses were both with the Lord by the time Zechariah saw this vision.

Originally Posted by greenbear

You're one "spiritual" guy, whirlwind.

Seeing the spirit of what is written is a wonderful thing and I thank Him for it.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Originally Posted by chette777

All joking aside if I run all the cross references of the powers of the two witness they agree to Moses and Elijah.

but what does make it clear that it is Moses an Elijah is the fact that only these two men ever stood with the Lord in glory. that is supported by Zec 4:3, 14. Luke 9:30, 31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

IN order for them to speak they have to have stood by him just as Rev11:4 says that they stand by the Lord.

The witnesses not only "stand by the LORD," but the Lord is in them and they in Him. They/we are One. They "entered into the cloud" and then..."Jesus was found alone." There was One body of Christ. The "great cloud of witnesses" is depicted there and when we become part of that great cloud we are one...one body of Christ, one body in Christ. We are all His witnesses, His servants.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

What "rain?" There is the early and the latter rain of His truth. Not all will hear or see the latter rain.

John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

What "waters will turn to blood?"

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The witnesses, who are His "rod of iron," [Revelation 2:27]have the power to turn people, through their testimony, to blood....

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, 'Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.'

Exodus 7:19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, "Say unto Aaron, 'Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.' "

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the god of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

The witnesses, all of them, have the power to turn those of Egypt (of the world) to blood...to life. The testimony of the Holy Spirit through them gives life to others (the vessels of wood and stone). Then they will be passed over when His wrath pours on the wicked at the end of Satan's tribulation.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

De 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

You're allegorizing/spiritualizing where none is necessary, the Law and the "Word" cannot be killed. The Word of God jhas already been slain, buried, and resurrected.

Grace and peace WW

Tony

There are many times our physical eyes must close so our spiritual eyes can see what is written.

Grace and peace to you too Tony....

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

Seeing the spirit of what is written is a wonderful thing and I thank Him for it.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Whirlwind, how do you decide which verses to interpret literally and which to interpret figuratively? You must have some kind of system worked out, would you care to share it?

In 2 Cor 3:6 Paul is speaking specifically of the new testament which is Paul's gospel of grace. The letter is the law and the spirit is grace. It does not mean we are free to spiritualize scripture whenever we see fit. Please compare the two verses and you will see the literal meaning more clearly.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Originally Posted by greenbear

Whirlwind, how do you decide which verses to interpret literally and which to interpret figuratively? You must have some kind of system worked out, would you care to share it?

In 2 Cor 3:6 Paul is speaking specifically of the new testament which is Paul's gospel of grace. The letter is the law and the spirit is grace. It does not mean we are free to spiritualize scripture whenever we see fit. Please compare the two verses and you will see the literal meaning more clearly.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I don't decide anything Greenbear...It is either time for me to see the spiritual meaning or not as it is with us all. Some things I see and some I don't. If I'm having a difficult time I ask Him and He usually answers...at times the answer is so strong that it leaves me shaken. At other times it is through the teachings of another person or I just suddenly understand, suddenly see what is written....truly see.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it. (26) But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What He "said unto" us is in His Word. The Holy Spirit opens understanding, He teaches us....all things when it is our time to learn those things. It isn't that I decide to interpret anything.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

I don't decide anything Greenbear...It is either time for me to see the spiritual meaning or not as it is with us all. Some things I see and some I don't. If I'm having a difficult time I ask Him and He usually answers...at times the answer is so strong that it leaves me shaken. At other times it is through the teachings of another person or I just suddenly understand, suddenly see what is written....truly see.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it. (26) But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What He "said unto" us is in His Word. The Holy Spirit opens understanding, He teaches us....all things when it is our time to learn those things. It isn't that I decide to interpret anything.

What would you do if you felt that the Holy Spirit showed you that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh? Would you believe the spirit? Or would you believe the literal words as recorded in the bible? Every person must determine how to interpret a verse. It is a cop out to say that you don't decide how to interpret anything. You decide to listen to a spirit and decide what to believe based upon how you feel about the revelation. Or you decide to believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God (1 Jo 4:1). How do we try the spirits? With the word of God. Are you immune to being deceived, whirlwind?

There must be a standard. The bible is that standard. It means what it says. It is to be taken literally unless otherwise indicated within the text itself.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

"What saith the scripture?" is the question, not "What saith my imagination".

Originally Posted by greenbear

What would you do if you felt that the Holy Spirit showed you that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh? Would you believe the spirit? Or would you believe the literal words as recorded in the bible? Every person must determine how to interpret a verse. It is a cop out to say that you don't decide how to interpret anything. You decide to listen to a spirit and decide what to believe based upon how you feel about the revelation. Or you decide to believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God (1 Jo 4:1). How do we try the spirits? With the word of God. Are you immune to being deceived, whirlwind?

There must be a standard. The bible is that standard. It means what it says. It is to be taken literally unless otherwise indicated within the text itself.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

"What saith the scripture?" is the question, not "What saith my imagination".

What saith the Scripture is quite true....and Scripture sayeth more than is written....as written. It is the same Word and yet to some it is milk while to others it is meat.

Matthew 24:45-46 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

He decides when each of us are ready for a particular understanding. I'm sure you have noticed how you can read a verse and then a week or so later read it again and suddenly...you see the same words and yet you see a new meaning.

Please notice that I use Scripture to explain. If I may ask...what have I written you feel is of my imagination or is from the wrong spirit?

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by whirlwind

What saith the Scripture is quite true....and Scripture sayeth more than is written....as written. It is the same Word and yet to some it is milk while to others it is meat.

Matthew 24:45-46 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

He decides when each of us are ready for a particular understanding. I'm sure you have noticed how you can read a verse and then a week or so later read it again and suddenly...you see the same words and yet you see a new meaning.

Please notice that I use Scripture to explain. If I may ask...what have I written you feel is of my imagination or is from the wrong spirit?

What saith the Scripture is quite true....and Scripture sayeth more than is written....as written.

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you are saying that what is written in the bible is in code; the plain meaning is not the real meaning but the spirit has to reveal the hidden meaning? Or are you saying that the scripture means the thing it plainly states but also means something else at the same time?

Please notice that I use Scripture to explain.

How can I understand the scriptures you quote if God has not seen fit to also give to me the hidden meaning of those scriptures?

If I may ask...what have I written you feel is of my imagination or is from the wrong spirit?

Whirlwind, I am not accusing you of anything. I asked you a question. You still haven't answered the question. I'll repeat the question and hope you will agree to answer it.


My question from post# 77:

What would you do if you felt that the Holy Spirit showed you that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh? Would you believe the spirit? Or would you believe the literal words as recorded in the bible?

Originally Posted by greenbear

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you are saying that what is written in the bible is in code; the plain meaning is not the real meaning but the spirit has to reveal the hidden meaning? Or are you saying that the scripture means the thing it plainly states but also means something else at the same time?

When I first began to study I was taught that Scripture can have three meanings but they will never conflict. No, I don't think it is written in code. The plain meaning is the letter, or the milk of the Word and as such is filling and wholesome. But, as quoted previously, when we are ready the Spirit feeds us meat, deeper understanding. The Words don't change but our understanding of those same words do. So, I would say that I agree with your second question...the scripture means the thing it plainly states but also means something else at the same time," but it will not conflict with the original thought...it is just a deeper understanding.

How can I understand the scriptures you quote when God has not seen fit to also give to me the hidden meaning of that scripture?

The same way we all do. We learn from each other for He opens things to each of us at different times on different subjects. If it is time for us to understand...we will. If not...we won't. We just have to be open to Him speaking to us through others as well as to us directly through His Word. For this reason the following verses are among my favorites as I believe it applies to us, members of forums such as this:

Malachi 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name. And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Whirlwind, I am not accusing you of anything. I asked you a question. You still haven't answered the question. I'll repeat the question and hope you will agree to answer it.


My question from post# 77:

What would you do if you felt that the Holy Spirit showed you that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh? Would you believe the spirit? Or would you believe the literal words as recorded in the bible?

I didn't feel you were accusing me Greenbear. I just wondered if I had written something you felt wasn't of the right spirit. I thought I did answer your question but it was in a round-about way. Sorry.

To answer your question , I can't imagine that happening. To be told Jesus didn't come in the flesh is in opposition to the Word. As He is the Word and He tells us that, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me)," everything must be IN THE BOOK.

But, I understand what you are saying. A dear friend has suddenly fallen into the preterist camp. He quotes verses that he sees as proving it where I see the exact opposite. It is the same with rapture believers. Some believe it is written while others, of which I am one....see the doctrine of a rapture before the tribulation as unbiblical.