[George]

Originally Posted by premio53

"I must say that this is a strange forum. I simply wanted to discuss scripture and everything becomes a personal attack.

You accuse Winman of maybe not being saved because he disagreed with your interpretation concerning two gospels and then in this thread after Winman presented strong arguments supported by scripture you accuse him of:"

1) you will not rightly divide the word of truth
2) preconceived Ideas as to what the scriptures teach
3) failure to properly study to show thy self approved

"I simply thanked Winman for presenting what I thought were strong scriptural arguments and couldn't understand why anyone would accuse him of not studying the scriptures. The next thing I know George comes out of a whirlwind and slams me for not being hospitable because he thinks I was attacking you while demanding to know everything about my personal life instead of addressing the scriptures!

I have no idea who George is but he seems to run this forum. That's fine. I'm new and understand my pecking order but I really don't understand the sensitive feelings. I will refrain from posting for awhile ."

premio53,

You conveniently "LEFT OUT" your "CHEAP SHOTS" against a brother in Christ who you NO NOT KNOW! You claimed: "I simply wanted to discuss Scripture". Is criticizing and insulting one of the brethren on this Forum - "simply discussing Scripture"? I trow not!

Premio53’s quote Post #50:
“Why would it matter if he was Jehovah Witness, Morman or any other cult? Why not just answer the scriptures he has presented? Are you seeking some information to go after him personally?”

If you want to know WHY I got on your case - carefully read this link: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=62

By your disingenuous reply above, it's obvious that you will easily "overlook" your personal insults to someone on this Forum; (someone about whom you know NOTHING about) and then you try to play the "innocent injured party" when someone calls you down for your "attitude".

For your information - I do not run this Forum. (If I did you would already be gone.) But when some "UNKNOWN STRANGER" comes on to the AV1611 Bible Forums and starts to "criticize" a fellow brother in Christ (and a personal friend of mine to boot), you can bet your bottom dollar that the "old curmudgeon" will admonish. reprove, or rebuke you for your "indiscretion".

We are very tolerant here, but we will not put up with some "newbie" (an "UNKNOWN STRANGER") joining our Forum and, without even a "Howdy Do", who starts to "criticize" one of the brethren here. If you knew anything about "common courtesy" you would not have made the remarks that you made about brother Chette Nichols, but since you obviously lack the "social graces", I'm here to remind you that we don't take kindly to "UNKNOWN STRANGERS" insulting our friends and fomenting trouble.

Oh, and by the way - I NEVER asked you about "everything in your personal life" (you do have a way of "twisting" things don't you?), but it is hard to understand WHY an "Old fashioned Baptist" is reluctant to at least introduce themselves and give a word of friendly testimony, before jumping into the middle of a "controversial Issue" and start insulting some of the brethren. We still don't know whether you are a man or a woman.

Read the Link, perhaps you will know "where I am coming from".

Proverbs 4:24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.

Proverbs 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Winman

As for the "gospel of the kingdom", let's examine a verse.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Winman, I hope you don't skip my question again. (You have done so in another thread. This keeps us beating around the bush.)

The CONTEXT of Matthew 24:14 is Matthew 24:13. "But he that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom..." (Mt. 24:13,14a)

Is Matthew 24:13-14 the same gospel that Paul preached? Yes or no?

Sincerely, I'd say this: you can ignore answer important questions like this one, but you'll never get to know "rightly dividing the word of truth" by doing that.

Hope you consider and meditate. Thanks!

[chette777]

Premios53,

you jumped into a hot spot without your fire gear on. You see Winman has been given all the scriptures to prove what we have said and that prove he is wrong in what he has been presenting as truth.

But Winman just doesn't agree. when it comes down to it you can show him clear biblical facts with scriptures. then the first words out of his heart are "I disagree" then he follows that with some out of context verses to continue to prove he is right and everyone else is wrong.

After 5 plus months of dealing with Winman I have learned just to back away after so many and leave it at that.

but one thing is for sure in five and half months Winman has never said anything about himself until yesterday and that was only to say he was Baptist. Like you we don't know if he is a she, how old is he, does he have his own web site. We got a little glimps into what was supposed to be Winman in an encouragement to pray in one of his posts. but again very little is known of him

please take time to introduce yourself and you willfind George I and the others are very good people.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by premio53

I must say that this is a strange forum. I simply wanted to discuss scripture and everything becomes a personal attack.



You accuse Winman of maybe not being saved because he disagreed with your interpretation concerning two gospels and then in this thread after Winman presented strong arguments supported by scripture you accuse him of:

1) you will not rightly divide the word of truth
2) preconceived Ideas as to what the scriptures teach
3) failure to properly study to show thy self approved

I simply thanked Winman for presenting what I thought were strong scriptural arguments and couldn't understand why anyone would accuse him of not studying the scriptures. The next thing I know George comes out of a whirlwind and slams me for not being hospitable because he thinks I was attacking you while demanding to know everything about my personal life instead of addressing the scriptures!

I have no idea who George is but he seems to run this forum. That's fine. I'm new and understand my pecking order but I really don't understand the sensitive feelings. I will refrain from posting for awhile.

Lets address the underlined shall we?
Premio53 said "I have no idea who George is"

First of you are a member of the "FFF" Forums, so I am quite sure you know who Brother George is with the scorn he recieves from that place.

I will assume? that from your username Premio53 you are the same premio53 from FFF forums, and the same premio53 who goes by the name SOUTHERN BAPTIST
here http://www.topix.com/member/profile/premio53

Now, it seems that premio53 likes chess is that right?, just like Tandy1650 likes his chess? Striking similaritys here also with a snippet of testimony from Tandy1650 and premio53

Tandy1650

When it came to lying and stealing, it didn't bother me and I had nothing but "religion" to comfort me. In 1971, while working at a grocery store, someone left a Chick tract entitled "This Was Your Life" in a flower pot. I took it home and after reading it, the Holy Spirit brought me under much conviction and I no longer tried to fool myself into thinking that I was saved. A week or two passed when after hearing a sermon by my pastor, I finally cried from my heart to the Lord to have mercy and save me for Jesus sake. There was a peace that passed over my soul that words can't describe and for the first time in my life I layed down in bed and wasn't afraid to meet God.

Premio53 (from the linked site above)

If you stand before God and say “Lord I got baptized, I didn't have any musical instruments in the church, I quit my cussing, I quit getting drunk, I did this and this and this...” how much merit will that get you? Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; When I was 18 years old in 1971 I cried out with a REPENTANT heart “God be merciful to me a sinner and save me for Jesus sake!” It was then that I “passed from death unto life.” Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I am beginning to think these two men are one in the same


In addition here is another snipet that confirms they are the same person
from this link from http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/...A7Q1OOH3APT/p4 POST 75
Premio53

This is also where the Church of Christ has twisted scripture with human wisdom. I have talked with members of the Church of Christ and have read their tracts. This is the PROCESS that is given.

1.Believe
2.Repent
3.Confess
4.Be baptized

In scripture REPENTANCE always comes BEFORE faith! That is why Romans 10:10 says that it is with the HEART that man believeth unto righteousness; …

From these forums by Tandy1650 http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....+tracts&page=2 post17

The problem with the Church of Christ is they reverse the God given order of repentance and faith and make salvation a process. They teach:

1. Believe
2. Repent
3. Confess
4. Be baptized
In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven.

Baptists have always taught that repentance comes before faith. Repentance will bring about a change of heart and attitude toward their sin. They will see themselves guilty before God and in need of salvation. There will be a desire to forsake the sin and turn to God.

Romans 10:10 clearly states that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Psalms 120:2 Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[chette777]

Well if that be true we are being deceived, and a man who lies in a son of the Devil. and then that would answer why Premio53 never gave testimony and jumped right in.

And seeing that Tandi was banned he may have wanted to come back into the forums by LYING and the Lord will deal with him on this for one cannot lie and hope that God will honor his study, or his teaching.

Great insight POW

[Winman]

Biblestudent asked:

Winman, I hope you don't skip my question again. (You have done so in another thread. This keeps us beating around the bush.)

The CONTEXT of Matthew 24:14 is Matthew 24:13. "But he that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom..." (Mt. 24:13,14a)

Is Matthew 24:13-14 the same gospel that Paul preached? Yes or no?

I will attempt to answer your question. Personally, I believe there is only one gospel, and this is what Jesus was preaching throughout the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John).

Here are some verses from those books that I think show this is so.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

I do not know of anywhere in the gospels that it says Jesus came to restore the kingdom. The Pharisees asked Jesus directly about the restoration of the kingdom, look how Jesus answered.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

First, Jesus told the Jews the kingdom of God cometh not with observation. The Jews had expected the Messiah to come and set up an earthly kingdom. But Jesus told them the kingdom does not come with observation. Then he tells them the kingdom of God is "within you". I believe this is speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit that was to come and abide with all believers. I believe this is speaking of the church age we live in now. Jesus also said they would desire to see one of the days of the Son of man and shall not see it. I believe this is speaking of when Jesus would be crucified and no longer seen on the earth, Jesus gave many similar statements. Then he describes the tribulation period after the church age. Verse 25 again tells that Jesus must first suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.

So, to me, Jesus did answer their question although I doubt they understood the answer. First Jesus must be crucified and rise from the dead. Then there would be the church age, with the Holy Spirit dwelling in believers. This is the kingdom which cannot be observed with the eyes. Then the tribulation, then Christ would return to establish his earthly kingdom. This lines up with all prophesy that we now know.

And once again, the apostles asked Jesus directly in Acts 1 when the kingdom would be restored. If you read carefully, you see the same answer.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus answered the apostles and told them it was not for them to know the times (very important, take note) or the seasons (also plural), which the Father hath put in his own power. And then Jesus tells them they would be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth.

Notice Jesus said "times". This is also what Peter said in Acts 3:21

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Now, I do not know how anyone who believes in dispensations can miss the word "times" used in these verses. I believe in Acts 3:21 Peter is saying the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution of all things. What this tells me is that there would be at least two times or ages that must take place first before Jesus would return. I believe this is refering to the church age, and then the tribulation.

So, Peter was not preaching the immediate return of Jesus if the Jews repented of killing Jesus, two times or ages must take place first. And this fits squarely with what we believe today.

And Peter tells in many places what they were actually preaching in early Acts. They were preaching the same gospel, of believeing on Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life, not the restoration of the kingdom.

This is enough for now, but I have many other scriptures I could show you (and will). I have not done any twisting of scriptures whatsover. Everything fits perfectly with what we know today. The supposed "gospel kingdom" teaching however has many problems, many of which I have already pointed out.

[kevinvw]

That therein lies the problem. You don't see the difference between the two kingdoms that Christ came and preached about. Jesus preached about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven, and while it may seem they are one in the same because sometimes He speaks of them interchangeably, they are two different worlds. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and the kingdom of Heaven is a worldly physical kingdom.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Did the angel Gabriel lie when he said that Jesus will rule on the throne of David which is on earth in Jerusalem? I mean if the kingdom of God is within us, why would Jesus need to rule on the physical visible throne of David? I mean even Jesus himself said that His kingdom is not of this world, so why is this angel Gabriel going around saying that He is going to inherit David's kingdom on earth?

Here is a website that will show you the difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God.

[Winman]

As far as what John the Baptist preached, Paul makes that clear in Acts.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

This is the gospel, believe on the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. Nothing of the restoration of the kingdom mentioned.

And before Paul turned to the Gentiles, what did he preach to the Jews?

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

So, here was Paul preaching to Jews about the forgiveness of sins, not the restoration of the kingdom. But since they judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life, he turned to the Gentiles.

But did Paul stop preaching to the Jews here? No, the very next chapter finds him in the synagogue preaching again to Jews.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.


And you see Paul preaching to Jews all the way to Acts 28 in Rome.

Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

So, here again in Rome, Paul is still preaching to Jews to believe on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Some did believe, but others not, and so Paul states that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles.

And here is where Peter shows forgiveness of sins was preached in early Acts.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Not one mention of the restoration of the kingdom.

[Winman]

That therein lies the problem. You don't see the difference between the two kingdoms that Christ came and preached about. Jesus preached about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven, and while it may seem they are one in the same because sometimes He speaks of them interchangeably, they are two different worlds. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and the kingdom of Heaven is a worldly physical kingdom.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Did the angel Gabriel lie when he said that Jesus will rule on the throne of David which is on earth in Jerusalem? I mean if the kingdom of God is within us, why would Jesus need to rule on the physical visible throne of David? I mean even Jesus himself said that His kingdom is not of this world, so why is this angel Gabriel going around saying that He is going to inherit David's kingdom on earth?

I am not confused. I believe the Lord Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation and rule over his kingdom. This will be a literal kingdom you can see with your eyes.

What you are missing is what the Jews were missing, the kingdom of God which is within you. I believe this is all the believers of the church age indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You cannot see this kingdom with your eyes, but it is there.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Do you not see you are making the very same mistake the Jews made? They expected the Messiah to come and immediately set up his earthly kingdom. They did not know of the church age and tribulation that must come first.

When Christ speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth, he is speaking of the end.

[Biblestudent]

Winman,
You have not addressed the verse in question.
How do you explain Matthew 24:13,14?