[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

You're "past the bitterness" but write three times as much as I did in response, with ten times the vitriol? I'm not convinced, brother.

Differences in administrations. The church split because people allowed that teaching to become an issue; it was not Estep's fault. If a pastor isn't close enough to God to keep a problem-causer from coming in and splitting the church, then perhaps that man's walk with God should be questioned, and not just the doctrine that led to the problem.

You have no idea the pain and trouble this man caused us; I'd love to go around and expose him for what he is, but I'm NOT called to do that, regardless of what you think. MARK them, yes. But that doesn't mean I have to go around whining about what he did to my church! AVOID them, yes, but that doesn't entail writing dozens of pages of literature and wasting countless hours transcribing his messages just to fight against him.

It's apparent from your response to me that you're still very bitter about what happened. I approached you in a respectful manner, yet you bit back at me as if I had attacked you. Perhaps some self-examination is in order.

Hopefully you'll see, like I have (after I butt heads with george myself; quite fiercely I might add), that he is a seasoned warrior of God's Word. You would do well to listen to him.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Hopefully you'll see, like I have (after I butt heads with george myself; quite fiercely I might add), that he is a seasoned warrior of God's Word. You would do well to listen to him.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

After but a few posts, I must say I have a lot of respect for him; there are few people that I look up to online, and he's right up there with them. That being said, right is right, and wrong is wrong. I believe his attitude is dead wrong here, and like I said in my original post to him, my object was to entreat him, not to reprimand him; That is not my place. I do think, however, that Biblical truth is Biblical truth regardless of whose mouth it's proceeding from.

[George]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

"You're "past the bitterness" but write three times as much as I did in response, with ten times the vitriol? I'm not convinced, brother.

Differences in administrations. The church split because people allowed that teaching to become an issue; it was not Estep's fault. If a pastor isn't close enough to God to keep a problem-causer from coming in and splitting the church, then perhaps that man's walk with God should be questioned, and not just the doctrine that led to the problem.

You have no idea the pain and trouble this man caused us; I'd love to go around and expose him for what he is, but I'm NOT called to do that, regardless of what you think. MARK them, yes. But that doesn't mean I have to go around whining about what he did to my church! AVOID them, yes, but that doesn't entail writing dozens of pages of literature and wasting countless hours transcribing his messages just to fight against him.

It's apparent from your response to me that you're still very bitter about what happened. I approached you in a respectful manner, yet you bit back at me as if I had attacked you. Perhaps some self-examination is in order."

MC1171611,

Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Now I know that in the context these verses are to be applied historically to Israel and the "watchman" {Ezekiel}. However notice how the Apostle Paul applied the Scriptural "principle" to himself, when it came to warning the Christians of his day of the apostasy that was taking place amongst the "leaders" of the church at Ephesus. If I held my "peace" and avoided warning the brethren about a doctrine that is clearly the most corrupt, degenerate, deviant, and depraved heresy I have come across in the 50 years that I have been saved, (that is - IF I followed your personal "advice" and "ignored" God's commands concerning false teaching, heresy, false teachers, and heretics) I would be guilty of disobeying God and of the blood of those innocent Christians that have been adversely affected and spiritually damaged by this man and his insidious doctrine. {Thanks! But NO THANKS!)

Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Please notice the TOTAL ABSENCE of even one Scripture from your "responses", "psychoanalyzing", and "personal opinions" (Posts #56 & #60 & #62) as compared to mine.

Your Quote:

"I do think, however, that Biblical truth is Biblical truth regardless of whose mouth it's proceeding from."

WHAT "BIBLICAL TRUTH"? You didn't cite one single Scripture in your three Posts in response to my Posts {Not a single solitary Scripture!}. Is your personal "opinion" "Biblical Truth"?
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I want to know: "What saith the Scripture" - NOT what "thinketh" man.

As Bible believing Christians, we are to live our lives according to the dictates of God's Holy word - NOT the dictates of our "conscience", or "feelings", or "psychobabble". You have no idea what took place on this island and are making "judgments" out of ignorance and without a single solitary fact at your disposal.

Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

You would do well to reexamine your responses to me and take note of the total absence of Scripture in support of your "opinions". You're "judging" my heart's motives without knowing me; my family; my friends; the churches involved; the people involved; the facts of the issue; or the circumstances! In other words: You don't know a single solitary thing! And further more, you have no more idea about the condition of my heart in this matter, or my motives, than you know any of the facts about what took place here. It is unbelievable to me how Christians in this day and age can judge a matter, or another Christian, without a single solitary fact at their disposal.

[Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.]

If it is "apparent" to you that I am still bitter or angry over this issue, it's not what you think. What makes me angry is when Christians (like yourself) ignore clear Bible teaching regarding false teaching, false teachers, heresy, and heretics, and try to "soft pedal" our response according to Humanistic reasoning - rather than clear Biblical teaching! If all you have is your personal "opinion" and a weak attempt at "psychoanalyzing" me, then I have no more to say to you on this subject!

[MC1171611]

Your vociferous responses to me are clear, brother. You will not listen to reason, and that is always a sign of pride. You respond in vehemence, and that is a sign of bitterness. That much is clear. Good night, I was trying to entreat you to check your approach, and you bit my stinkin' head off! Attitude check!

Nothing I said was "humanistic." I'm simply trying to point out that while you disagree with the man, and rightly so, there is NO cause to run around bashing him simply because he taught a single doctrine that is scripturally wrong. He's not the antichrist's little brother, like you seem to believe: he's simply a man who had a doctrine wrong. Did it cause a problem? Perhaps. Could that have been avoided by a perceptive preacher who had the right relationship with God? You betcha.

I'm sorry you reacted so badly, but that's not my fault. I would hope you could understand some of the Biblical principles that I allude to, since I'm rather busy and don't really have time to sit down and put together a verse-laden post.

Again: Mark them, avoid them, but don't SLANDER them and spend so much time wallowing in BITTERNESS about something that happened to you because of that person. There's much more in the Bible about evil speaking and anger/bitterness than there is about responding to incorrect doctrine.

Major on the Majors.

[Brother Tim]

Guys, could y'all step back a little while and let the dust settle?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Good night, I was trying to entreat you to check your approach, and you bit my stinkin' head off! Attitude check!

You focused on what you think is bitterness over a personal experience George shared, and offered your opinion on his motives and feelings rather than any Scripture. Are you certain he's the one with the problem here?

AFAIAC anyone who teaches that he is in Christ's place in the church should be marked whenever he is mentioned.

3 John 1:9-11 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

If anything, this thread shows that you shouldn't share your personal experiences with people if you want them to pay attention to the Scripture you are pointing out -- people love to focus on what they think they can figure out about your psyche rather than take the Scripture.

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Guys, could y'all step back a little while and let the dust settle?

Aloha brother Tim,

I appreciate your concern for the "tone" of this debate between myself and MC1171611. However, MC1171611 has missed the whole point of my Posts, and that is: Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

The Apostles named some of the heretics, false teachers, and troublemakers in the churches, and if we are not allowed to name names now (because of Humanistic Political Correctness, "PC"), then we are in big trouble, because false doctrine and heresy along with false teachers and heretics will be allowed to flourish because we don't won't to "hurt someone's feelings"; or because UNITY in the church may be disturbed. But what does God have to say about all this?

I ask you to "review" MC1171611's responses (his Posts #56 & #60 #62 & #64) to my Posts and please take note of the total lack of a single Scripture in all of his responses! And also take note of his last statement:

"I'm sorry you reacted so badly, but that's not my fault. I would hope you could understand some of the Biblical principles that I allude to, since I'm rather busy and don't really have time to sit down and put together a verse-laden post."

If he refuses to back up his "opinions" with the Holy Scriptures, why is he even commenting on the issue - unless he "thinks" that his "opinions" are "alluding" to Scripture?

Now, IF, you go to his Post on inspiration "Inspiration Biblically" you will understand why he "low-rates" Scripture (according to him - it's NOT inspired!), and elevates his own "opinions".

This debate started after brother Atlas included Greg Estep in amongst a group of men that he admired and recommended. I was fairly sure that brother Atlas was unaware that Estep is a false teacher and a heretick and I warned him that he should be very careful WHO he recommends.
{I have been on this Forum for about 8 months, and it's not like I have been on a personal "vendetta" against Estep during all of that time. In the approximately 420 Posts that I have made during all of this time, I may have mentioned him once (in passing) and certainly did not seek to expose him - not until brother Atlas mentioned him, at which time I felt obligated to set the record straight.}

After brother Atlas checked out my expose of the so-called "Doctrine of Submission" on my web page, he informed me that he was unaware that Estep taught this false teaching and said he agreed with almost everything that I had written in my critique on the false doctrine and Greg Estep - end of story! UNTIL - MC1171611 came fourth with his testimony and private opinions about "how to handle the issue" - which are totally unscriptural.

The question arises: What are we (Christians) to do about False Teachers and Heretics? The Bible is real clear as to what we are to do, and so it comes down to - do we follow God's Holy word, or do we follow our "conscience", our "feelings", or our own "private opinions"?

As far as I am concerned, I intend (to the best of my ability) to obey the Scriptures, and if some of the "brethren", think that I'm too "vociferous", "unreasonable", "bitter", "whining", "proud", "bashing", "slanderous", "unperceptive", "evil speaking", "unjustly judging", or that I have A "wrong or bad attitude" (ALL accusations made by MC1171611 against me), THEN - SO BE IT!

But there is one thing I am not going to do - I am not going to ignore the Scriptures and do "WHAT I THINK IS BEST", just to "get along"; just for the sake of "peace" and "unity"; just so I can "feel good" about myself and avoid exposing heresy (and heretics), because it really isn't that important! This is how every church that has ever been existence has become apostate and reprobate - by failing to contend for the truth!

I appreciate your concern brother, and I too am concerned about the acrimony displayed in the debate between myself and MC1171611. I would ask you to re-examine our Posts and judge (for yourself) who has been standing for the truth and who has been promoting his own private opinions. {1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.}

The following verses are just some of the verses that the Lord has supplied us with, so that we might be "on guard" against "false teachers" and "heretics" and their pernicious doctrines (NOT just: "he's simply a man who had a doctrine wrong"):

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us withmaliciouswords: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

If I am to err in my judgment in this matter, I am going to err on the side of the Scriptures, and not on the side of my own private opinions, which are highly susceptible error ". . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, . . ." Romans 3:4

I can remember way back in 1973, when after much searching of the Scriptures, I came to the conclusion that the only way to "safe-guard" our children from the corrupting influence of Humanism was for us to "homeschool" them. I can remember (at that time) most of the "brethren" disagreeing with me, and even some pastors saying that I must obey Caesar in the matter (As if Caesar owned my children! As if God had blessed Caesar with my children and not my wife and I!) Well, we went ahead and homeschooled them anyway, in spite of the "prevailing opinions" amongst the "brethren" at that time. I wonder how many of the "brethren" would disagree with my convictions now - 35 years later?

Sometimes a man has to stand - no matter what the cost; no matter how many accusations are made against him; and no matter what others may "think" of him. There are times that we, as men, must "man up" and stand up for the truth - no matter what the "brethren" "think" or say: 1 Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

[MC1171611]

Ah, so just because I disagree with your reaction to a single person's false teachings, all of a sudden my masculinity is in question? Sad, sad, sad.

Bro. George, if you have a response to my "Biblical Inspiration" topic, then I'd suggest you put it in THAT topic. I think I made my point very well, and the only person who responded was answered promptly, so there's no reason to QUESTION my belief in the SCRIPTURES simply because I disagree with your ATTITUDE. If you can prove from the Scriptures that it is the Scriptures that are inspired, then be my guest. Otherwise, sticking to the point at hand would be advisable (though we've seen how you react to my advice).

YOU responded badly to my initial post in this thread concerning you. Any objective viewer (I'll excuse Bro. Brandon because of familial ties) can see that my post was naught but an appeal to you to reconsider your attitude and tone toward another brother in Christ. Yes, he taught wrong doctrine, but who doesn't?? EVERYONE will find himself lacking at one point or another: those who are proud will not learn where they teach falsely until the Judgment Seat of Christ; others learn in this life. I'm not negating the severity of the false doctrine; I actually discussed the "shepherd of the church" nonsense rather heatedly with a member of Charity Baptist, as a result of Bro. Estep's former teachings.

Mark them, avoid them, reject them, rebuke THEM (not everyone else other than him!!), etc. Not ONCE in there is the command given to go around undermining the ministry of another man of God, unless you twist the Scriptures to fulfill your own bitterness.

These responses from you have seriously reminded me of a moderator from the last forum I was on; he was unreasonable and refused to even listen to anyone who disagreed with him, even when approached in a Biblical manner. Go ahead and sling verse after verse at me to try and shore up your attitude; anyone with the Spirit of God can see through the facade. Multiplicity of Scripture usage doesn't prove that you're right; half of the verses you've taken out of context, or otherwise ignored the proper application. You are not Paul, and this board is not Titus, Timothy, or the churches at Corinth, Galatia or Ephesus.

I've attempted to make my point; if you refuse to respond in a civil manner, as you have so far, then I'll refrain from continuing the dialogue. However, it will be shown who had the right attitude through the entire exchange, you can be sure.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

(I'll excuse Bro. Brandon because of familial ties)

Ah, here you go again, assuming you understand someone's motives rather than addressing what they have said. Very telling. It sure does make it easy to dismiss what someone says when you have them all figured out, don't it?

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Ah, here you go again, assuming you understand someone's motives rather than addressing what they have said. Very telling. It sure does make it easy to dismiss what someone says when you have them all figured out, don't it?

I just assumed since you jumped on my case about my entreating a man to rethink his attitude that it was because he was family. I know that I wouldn't side against my family in most cases where good relations were to be desired, even if it meant keeping silent where that family member was wrong.

What's with everyone being so sarcastic and condescending to me? George is the one attacking ME, not the other way around. Check out the posts again if you think otherwise.