[LindaR]

Originally Posted by Forrest

"...but this doesn't mean we discard the Old Testament. I hope that's not what you guys are saying!"

Of course not. There are many Old Testament verses we can "apply" as New Testament believers. (Like in Proverbs for example.) As already clarified, for the believer, the doctrine of atonement is one of those specific instances where I disregard obedience and submission to the Old Testament and receive, believe, and teach the New Testament as absolute truth.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4).

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10).

It is finished!

I am in total agreement with this. I also believe that the law of tithing doesn't apply to the New Testament believer. All Old Testament law was fulfilled at Calvary.

[George]

Originally Posted by Josh

I believe that none of the Bible is to be disregarded. All scripture is given by inspiration of God. No it's not all directly for us, but it is all proffitable for us. There are certain things, such as many of the commands in the law, that we aren't to keep. However, much of the Old Testament can still be applied to us, and certainly all of the New Testament.

Aloha brother Josh,

I agree with much of what you say, however I think a clarification of my position on this issue is in order:

I believe that the entire Bible (Genesis - Revelation) is for us {Christians} .

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Any Christian who mindlessly disregards the Old Testament or "chops up" the Scriptures into - "Books", only for the Jews; or "Books", only for Christians; or "Books", only for Tribulation saints - is not obeying God's command to "rightly divide the WORD of truth".

We are not told to "divide" the Old Testament from the New Testament (as if the Old Testament is exclusively for the Jews and has no bearing or value for Christians) and we are not told to "divide" the Books of the Bible in such a way as to relegate the Books of Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, & 3 John, Jude, and Revelation as exclusively for Tribulation saints and have no application for Christians in the church age (as some Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalists do.) We are commanded to "rightly divide the word of truth"!

Those Christians who would "chop up" the Bible in such a manner where the entire Old Testament or certain New Testament Books are regarded as "unprofitable" and not worth our time and effort to study them are hugely mistaken. Conversely, those Christians who seek to "harmonize" all Scripture as if all Scripture is APPLICABLE to Christians are just as mistaken.

God's COMMAND is to: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15 ] Studying God's word in this manner is not easy and it does not lend itself to a "school" setting either (no time {or inclination} for a Bible "student" to make an independent inquiry as to whether what is being taught is true - that is according to Scripture.)

But there are some verses that point to HOW we are to "rightly divide the word of truth".

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Here then are the Scriptural "principles" for "rightly dividing" God's Holy word. We are to study the Scriptures and determine (within the context) WHO is speaking; WHO is being spoken to; WHO does the verse (or verses) "apply" to; WHO is obligated to obey; and WHO is this written to? It's all written for us, but it is not all directed at us.

God had other people in the past {besides Christians} that He dealt with for 4,000 years, before the church came into being {and much (but not all) of the Old Testament was directed at them}. And, in the future, there are going to be people in the Tribulation and the Millennium that will need Scriptures that are directed at them {it's not all about "US", you know), and God has supplied them all in One Book (The King James Bible), but some of the verses are not yet in affect.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

When I did my study on the Biblical Heart of man, approximately 721 verses on the "heart" came from the Old Testament and only approximately 159 verses came from the New Testament. Think how much of the truth about the "heart" of man I would have missed out on, if I had restricted my search to just the New Testament!

Originally Posted by chette777

No People I didn't look closely. on my screen it is very small and he looks young even the dress looks of a young persons

My mistake. he is all covered in a jacket and a hat so it is hard to tell. I guess I would look a whole lot younger if I cover my head and bundle up in a jacket and then make the shot small enough where people can't tell your age for sure.

But the assumption was reinforced with the fact that his words are of an immature Christian or from a young person as well. so placing things together my mind thought he was younger.

maybe Scott was saved late in life. I was saved at 33 I had lots of garbage to lose and still struggle with old baggage i carry in my flesh. One of the things I had to learn was not to get so wrapped up in someone elses teaching as being absolute truth and learn to study for myself witht eh new mind God has given me in Christ.

my point is this we when we are immature in knowledge and wisdom we tend to just blindly believe those who we deem more mature and knowledgable and that is a form of garbage or bagage we as saved late in life people need to get rid of. many have not learned that and don't really study freely with the mind of Christ we have been given by the Holy Ghost.

Scott and others reflect this attitude in their posts alot.

Chette that is me, I know I look very young, that picture is 3 months old, it must be all that good living, I got saved at 28 half my life ago, I know you don't understand me that is why you keep insulting me, but whatever. I mean not to fight with you, time will tell the truth. God Bless you again and your ministry

[Forrest]

George wrote: Any Christian who mindlessly disregards the Old Testament or "chops up" the Scriptures into - "Books", only for the Jews; or "Books", only for Christians; or "Books", only for Tribulation saints - is not obeying God's command to "rightly divide the WORD of truth".

You're right Brother George, I stand corrected. "Disregard" is not the right word. I was in error for using it in my post.

I said,

...the doctrine of atonement is one of those specific instances where I disregard obedience and submission to the Old Testament....

I should have said, "the doctrine of atonement is one of those specific instances where I do not obey or submit to the Old Testament and obey and submit to the teaching in our New Testament.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4).

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10).

[George]

Aloha brother Forrest,

Your quote:

"You're right Brother George, I stand corrected. Disregard" is not the right word. I was in error for using it in my post."

When I said what I said:

"Any Christian who mindlessly disregards the Old Testament or "chops up" the Scriptures into - "Books", only for the Jews; or "Books", only for Christians; or "Books", only for Tribulation saints - is not obeying God's command to "rightly divide the WORD of truth".

I honestly didn't have you or your statement in mind brother. As a matter of fact I missed the implications of the statement; and if I had seen it, I certainly wouldn't have pointed it out to you or anyone else, since (from your previous Posts) I would have known that you didn't mean it in the way that it could be construed.

When I made that statement I was thinking of the Hyper/Ultra Dispensationalists who have very little use for the Old Testament and who disparage those of us who are "moderate" Dispensationalists.

Brother, I never meant to single you or your statement out in any way, since I never made the "connection" to anything that you said. I try real hard not to be a "gnat" strainer, and I would have been guilty of straining "at a gnat" had I done so.

As I have said before brother, your Posts have been edifying and I greatly respect your conduct on this Forum (I often wish that I were able to "reign in" my conduct more often.)

May God bless both you and yours always.

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa

J We ourselves can not alter the doctrines of Jesus and disciples. If we do alter the doctrines, then we can end up in Hell.

Where does it say we will end up in Hell if the doctrines are altered,you will end up in Hell without Christ,however changing scripture can certainly leave out the pathway to Salvation.

Rev 18-20
Rev 22v19,..God shall take away his part out of the book of life... not to add or subtract to it.
How many versions of the Bible can you list? NIV,NLT,NASB,Amp,CEV,NJB,MSG etc... looks like it has already been done.

The OT and NT is for christians,how do you live your life what guidelines? Why does God call it the Ten commandments,its not a suggestion,its a commandment.

Daniels prophecies are transpiring today,does that mean the OT has no meaning and churches should not preach out of it,alot of churches are unfortunately. Preachers can bring there own agendas to a church if the congregation allows it. You get what you pay for,and some of them choose to focus on the NT.

[chette777]

Scott,

I never insulted you.

If you were insulted by any of my words then forgive me for they were not intentional.

[chette777]

Maybe we should of asked the one who started this post what they meant when they asked, Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

Maybe we should have had them clarify what they were saying and asking?

the word "apply" means to me that it is for life practice. so infered it to mean doctrines of practical spiritual life. this would include the major doctrines of Salvation, atonement, justification as well as the civil and religious doctrines like tithing, oferings, sacrifices, and how we treat each other.

While I have learned and have been instructed by a lot of things from the Old Testament.

Recently after reading Georges the mos ecredible man who ever lived. I went back through the book of Job. and trully he lived a life better than most Christians. he wouldn't even let some of the words we have spoken in this post come from his mouth just so he wouldn't have Gods judgment in this world befall him.. that is the fear of God.

so WWJD, What do you mean by Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

clarify your question so we don't all interpret it in different ways.

[peopleoftheway]

wwjd was banned Chette.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Forrest, When I said what I said: I honestly didn't have you or your statement in mind brother.

Brother George, I knew in my spirit you were not speaking to me. But the Holy Spirit did! He corrected me. Love you in the Lord, brother.