I'm new to this forum, and I was wondering why there is so much argueing going on instead of open discussion. Now I'm a Independant Baptist by doctrinal standing, but I'm first and foremost A born again believer. I say "believer" because others are to call us "Christains" not us.

Now I believe the Bible strongly teaches that salvation is eternal. I am a victim of easy beliefism, and the humanistic teaching that has been going on in Christian circles. When I was a child, an invitation was given, and I went forward to get saved. I was asked, as a child, if I wanted to go to Heaven. My obvious answer was "yes". They led me in a prayer and said I was saved.

On Feb.12,2007 I heard a message from the radio days that was played in my class on street preaching. Our salvation has nothing to do with whether on not we want to go to Heaven or Hell.

Our salvation is totally dependent upon the Holy Spirit drawing us to realize our standing as a sinner before a Holy, Sovergn, God; understanding that their is a penalty for sin; that God has provided payment for sin, Jesus' death, burial, and ressurection,; repentance of our sin before a Holy, Sovergn, God, and accepting what Christ has done on mankinds behalf as enough. That is what makes us a "bond servant", which Paul referrs to himself as being many times.

Salvation only occurs in this Biblical, none humanistic way. This may help explain why so many people could loss their salvation. It was because they were trusting in a prayer, works, on everything else we can list that is of themselves. Even realizing that you are lost is of God, not ourselves. That's why there can be no boasting.

If you can believe someone can loose their salvation? Please explain Peter's denying of Jesus before His death, and then Jesus forgiving Peter after His resurection. Did Peter finally get saved around the fire eating fish with Jesus.
Yes, grace is envolved, because God wants us to realize its not about us its about Him. We are his tools, but humanism has taught us that He is our tool. I belive this is call utilitarianism. I didn't use scripture because the Holy Spirit prompted me to share this with the whole forum. I'm not a great memorizer of Scripture, and the rest of you used so much scripture. My Question is what did the Holy Spirit that exsits within you say about what I just shared.

Be careful not to fight fleshly battles when we are supposed to be letting the Holy Spirit control us. I believe that has one of the most important things that God stressed throught Paul's writings. By the way a believer who lives in the flesh will appear as if they lost their salvation too.

Like I said I'm new

[chette777]

Stephanos,

Generally in the historical context Hebrews (if written by Paul) was to unsaved and saved jews under the Kingdom Gospel. the same with Peters writtings they are to the scattered Jews both beleivers and unbelievers but in the tribulation. because the disciples of Peters ministry were scarttered by persecution and Peter had to Leave Jerusalem because as far as the Romans were concerned he was an excaped prisoner. and all were saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom read teh transitional book of Act 1-8. the Kingdom gospel goes down hill from here and the Gospel of Grace become clearly evident in the rest of the Book of Acts.

your confusing the gospel of Grace taught by Paul with that one taught by the Apostles which was the Gospel of the Kingdom. this is the root of your misunderstanding and not seeing the clear light of the KJV in the books fromHebrew to Revelation 14

I am not presuming anything Gods word is quite clear if you would spend more time reading it rather than the works of others. the 144,00 and the 2 witnesses no where preach the Gospel of Grace that is where you are presuming.

The reason you don't see it is because you are closed minded to the process of how to rightly divide. there are many ways to divide but only one can be the correct way. so there are guidelines to how we do this. if you want to you will learn them.

you are interpreting the way I suggest to rightly divide as prideful. you are wrong. I learned this process because it is the only logical and proper way to divide the word of God that can be found. I found it to be the correct way and many will agree that it is. you don't have to agree but then you will be limited and confused as to what the scriputre teach.

so quit being so wicked as to constantly attacking me for being prideful and buffed up. that is only your interperetation from your egotisitical point of veiw as you read my text. You show no grace at all my friend. Get over yourself and learn for once. Only wicked people filled with bitterness attack people that way you do me.

Also quit speaking for me I never said I am not willing to learn. the point is I already thought the way you do in the past and by the Holy Ghost I learned certain things. then instead of reinventing the wheel I discovered others had already laid the ground works to what I was learning by the Holy Ghost. Maturity is really lacking in your post towards me.

[Renee]

pg 6 post 351 by pbiwolski

Gophgetter,

Allow me to re-post this question that you never answered on another thread.

Are you saved, right now? Can you give us a day/time when you were born spiritually, or is your salvation an ongoing thing?

I am not implying that you are not saved, but I am interested in your replies.

I'm guessing by now that I'm not the only one interested in you reply.

You also attributed a quote from peopleoftheway and applied it to me.

So come on and tell us of your salvation and where you came from and how you got to where you are now so "we can understand you better."

We are waiting.

Renee

PS got to read through all the post finally. I'll go check that thread out.

[chette777]

Renee,

Here is Gophgetter's answer to your guestion from "who was thefirst..."post

Originally Posted by Gophgetter

The answer to your 1st question is yes, I am saved right now. But what am I saved from? Right now I am saved from my past sins. I am being saved, through the Spirit, from the nature that causes me to sin. And if I endure to the end(Matt. 24:13;Rev. 2:26), I will be eternally saved and will rule and reign with Christ. I know I'm fixing to get jumped on for this statement but what I am saying is in the scripture.

The answer to your second question is May 1st, 1993. On that day, I lifted my hands toward Heaven and called on the name of Jesus. Right then and there, the Lord filled me with the Holy Ghost and I have never been the same since. Before that time, I was a drug addict and alcoholic. Since that time, I have never even wanted a drink or anything else for that matter. The Lord has changed my life. He has turned me completely around 180 degrees. Is God my Father. You better believe it. I have been born of the seed of Jesus Christ and no one can take that away from me. You guys might not want me for a brother, but guess what? I am.

[stephanos]

QUOTE
Stephanos,

Generally in the historical context Hebrews (if written by Paul) was to unsaved and saved jews under the Kingdom Gospel. the same with Peters writtings they are to the scattered Jews both beleivers and unbelievers but in the tribulation. because the disciples of Peters ministry were scarttered by persecution and Peter had to Leave Jerusalem because as far as the Romans were concerned he was an excaped prisoner. and all were saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom read teh transitional book of Act 1-8. the Kingdom gospel goes down hill from here and the Gospel of Grace become clearly evident in the rest of the Book of Acts.

your confusing (another case of the i'm right your wrong mentality) the gospel of Grace taught by Paul with that one taught by the Apostles which was the Gospel of the Kingdom. this is the root of your misunderstanding and not seeing the clear light of the KJV in the books fromHebrew to Revelation 14

I am not presuming anything Gods word is quite clear if you would spend more time reading it rather than the works of others (Again, the i'm right, your wrong mentality. You don't know me. The KJB is the only authority on matters of faith and practice, and that's how I've always stood). the 144,00 and the 2 witnesses no where preach the Gospel of Grace that is where you are presuming. (No, I was wondering why you made it sound like these folks wrong the books)

The reason you don't see it (and the beat goes on...) is because you are closed minded (and on...) to the process of how to rightly divide. there are many ways to divide but only one can be the correct way (that would be your way I'm guessing...) . so there are guidelines to how we do this. if you want to you will learn them. (*sigh*)

you are interpreting the way I suggest to rightly divide as prideful (nope, only the way you throw it in my face every time I say something). you are wrong (I guess so...). I learned this process because it is the only logical and proper way (oh now I see...) to divide the word of God that can be found. I found it to be the correct way and many will agree that it is. you don't have to agree but then you will be limited and confused (I really am...) as to what the scriputre teach.

so quit being so wicked (*sigh*) as to constantly attacking me (Chette, when will you realize that it is you that nearly always attacks me for something I say. I've been the one having to do the double take and defend myself against your attacks on the way I read the Holy Bible) for being prideful and buffed up. that is only your interperetation from your egotisitical point of veiw as you read my text. You show no grace at all my friend. (You've given me no room to) Get over yourself and learn for once. Only wicked people filled with bitterness attack people that way you do me. (perhaps if you quit calling me wrong at every turn, and presuming to know the ONLY way to rightly divide I would be more inclined to listen to you, instead of defending myself the way I've had to)

Also quit speaking for me I never said I am not willing to learn. the point is I already thought the way you do in the past and by the Holy Ghost I learned certain things. then instead of reinventing the wheel I discovered others had already laid the ground works to what I was learning by the Holy Ghost. Maturity is really lacking in your post towards me. (i'm sorry you feel this way Chette. I've tried reallyl hard to help you to see that I'm tired of the tone of your comments, and the constant "I'm right your wrong, LEARN THE ONLY WAY NOW" responses of yours but I'm finding it quite difficult)
QUOTE

I hope I've made my points clear.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

EDIT: I'm done. I'm not responding to these kind of posts anymore. I just don't have the stamina to do so, and I don't see how this is good for anyone.

[pbiwolski]

Stephanos,

So you don't like the "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff.

Well, do you have a desire to be right in your interpretation and understanding of scripture? I've been reading your "anti-dispensational" posts over the last several weeks, and it seems Chette is the primary one that won't let you get away with your nonscense. If you don't want to get it right, then don't start with the crybaby routine like you're the victim of this mean monster Chette.

There's alot of folks on this forum that do have it right, but we all just aren't going to take the time with you. You've already (over and over) rejected the sound doctrine of proper Bible division, and show no interest in learning what you obviously do not understand.

So, don't jump on someone that is trying to aid you because you don't like his tone, for it wasn't always so harsh, you know.

[Renee]

Thanks Chette,
I did go and check that out on the other thread, but I do think it is good to have it here too.

Renee

[George]

Aloha brother,

I appreciate your sentiments, but there are times when we must "contend" for the faith. I have been a member of this Forum for almost 7 months and during that time we have dealt with a number (approximately 12 or so) of "kooks", "Sophists", "blasphemers", "heretics" and "reprobates".

Although we are called to preach, teach, and to warn (for edification) - We are also called to admonish, reprove, and rebuke (for edification & correction).

I find it very instructive that since “gophgetter” joined our Forum that he has been the center of one “controversy” after another, and he has generated a great deal of strife, confusion and doubt {I wonder where THAT comes from?}

When he posted his first "Thread" on: "Who Was The First One to Teach 'Once Saved, always Saved'?" Under > AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine. He "insinuated" that those of us who believe in ETERNAL SALVATION (i.e. ETERNAL SECURITY) are False Prophets; False Teachers; and we have embraced a "damnable heresy" i.e. ETERNAL SALVATION! [The Accuser of the brethren - Revelation 12:10]

He then went on to state:

Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids?" Gen. 3:13:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die:Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Did you see the words "eternal life" (or even life) in the scripture verses "gophgetter" cited? Satan didn't promise them that they would have "Eternal Life" or "Everlasting Life" - he told them: "ye shall not surely die" (and he lied!). And so we have this stranger (a new-comer), "gophgetter", privately interpreting Scripture and making it say something that it didn't say (that is if words mean anything). "Gophgetter" ADDED to the words of God in order to PROVE his "false doctrine" i.e. damnable heresy!

"Gophgetter" continued on:

"Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids?" . . . "There you have it. It was none other that the serpent. He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life. . Adam and Eve were not created to die, they were created to live forever and to have dominion over the earth. But the Serpent robbed them of their life through deciet and caused them to diobey God. This message continued to be associated with false prophets.

"Gophgetter" insults us by calling us "KIDS": ("Are ya ready kids?") I'm 68 years old {Saved for 50 years - preaching & teaching the Scripture of Truth for 40 years} I'm definitely NOT "a kid" by any stretch of the imagination. But that's not as important as the "damnable heresy" that he has embraced and is promoting: He stated that Satan . . . "He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life." "Gophgetter" is impugning the truthfulness and integrity of Almighty God and His Holy word! He is attributing the doctrine of Eternal Security to Satan! And he has testified that this doctrine (that most of us on this Forum believe) is a damnable heresy!
[1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.]

On three (3) occasions I have asked “gophgetter” to judge us, as to whether we are False Prophets and False Teachers and whether we have embraced a "damnable heresy" and he has ignored my inquiries. He refuses to "man up" and answer truthfully and testify to what he really believes about most of us, instead he ignores my inquiries and continues to "engage" some of the brethren in strifes and debate [2Corinthians 12:20]. All the while feigning "innocence" (WHO me? WHAT did I say? WHY are you so upset?).

The man is clearly a HERETIC (according to the Scriptures) and I for one will not "engage" him in any more conversations. [Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;] "Gophgetter" has gotten far more than just one or two "admonitions" from the brethren and he still persists with his false doctrine and heresy.

I shall have more to say about Eternal Salvation and Eternal Security in a later "Thread", until then I will make this observation about the kooks, Sophists, blasphemers, heretics and reprobates that have shown up on this Forum. They ALWAYS come with a personal "agenda", which means that they will have to post several "Threads" (Not Posts) in a short time in order to get across their perverse ideas. I have been a member of this Forum for nearly 7 Months (approximately 25 weeks) During that time I have posted seven (7) "Threads". "Gophgetter" has been a member of this Forum for a little over 2 weeks and he has already posted five (5) "Threads". (The more "Threads" in a short time is a sure "sign" of one of the above offenders).

Check out some of the other "old-timers" on this Forum and you will see that they are here to "edify" and be "edified". They are not here just to generate controversy, strife, and debate, and you can usually tell that by the number of "Threads" they have posted (over several months) that they are not trying to "dominate" the Forum, but are looking to edify and be edified. There are some really knowledgeable brethren on this Forum, most of whom are also striving to obey God's word. However, there are also some people who have not been saved for very long (and who may not be "grounded" in the faith) and we cannot allow "false doctrines" or "Heresies" to go unchallenged (for their benefit and edification). It is our duty to earnestly contend for the faith when those who would subvert and pervert God's Holy words join this Forum.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[peopleoftheway]

very well put George!

God Bless you.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Stephanos,

So you don't like the "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff.

Well, do you have a desire to be right in your interpretation and understanding of scripture? I've been reading your "anti-dispensational" posts over the last several weeks, and it seems Chette is the primary one that won't let you get away with your nonscense. If you don't want to get it right, then don't start with the crybaby routine like you're the victim of this mean monster Chette.

There's alot of folks on this forum that do have it right, but we all just aren't going to take the time with you. You've already (over and over) rejected the sound doctrine of proper Bible division, and show no interest in learning what you obviously do not understand.

So, don't jump on someone that is trying to aid you because you don't like his tone, for it wasn't always so harsh, you know.

You get me wrong pbiwolski. I am slowly opening up to some of the dispensational teachings. What you fail to get about me is that I don't like being force fed. I like people who have a spirit of humilty who guide people to the answers so that they get the feeling of coming upon the answers themselves, instead of being told "these are the answers, believe or you're a heretic." Another thing you fail to realize about me is that I come from an Anabaptist background (Mennonite, Amish, Hutterite, Dunkard etc), and we generally don't agree with dispensationalism, and some more so than others. We've heard you guys throw your teachings down our throats before, and even though some of what you guys teach is indeed correct, we feel that there are errors in your so called "right" divisions (and we are not the only ones to have heard the teachings and to not agree). So, please, keep these things in mind when I voice my disagreement with some of the things being taught. Please don't assume that I've just arbitrarily decided against dispensationalism, and also grant me a little grace as I seek what you guys teach from those who don't have the "convert or take down" mentality.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen