[Renee]

Reply to post 58

As far as My three Sevens I dont have any. I worship everyday, I rest when I can, I do my best abstain from all things that are sinful or give the appearance of Sin. I eat anything placed in front of me as long as it contains no blood or human flesh, and I sanctify it by the word and Prayer.

Hi Brother Chette,

I couldn't resist:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

It is good to worship everyday, not just a special day, it is hard at times but when God is the center of your life, and you offer everything you do (at the start of the day and I don't) as unto the Lord, worship is ever present.


In God's love'
Renee

[Brother Tim]

Renee, your quote from Acts was an instruction to the new Gentile believers and their churches. They were coming out of terrible customs, and needed some "shock treatment" as well as some basic guidelines. Read what Paul by the Holy Ghost says to these same Gentiles later:

1 Corinthians 10:27-31 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

As always, we should never take any passage of the Scriptures and isolate it away from the rest, for the Book is one and speaks as one. Yes, there are passages that must be understood in context and not necessarily applied literally. How would we handle the following? Should it be read as a principle of personal responsibility and cleanliness, or must we carry a "pooper-scooper" on our belts (or weapon to be exact)?

Deuteronomy 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:

Now, Chette, with respect to borrowing/loaning in Matthew not applying to us. It appears to me that the early church in Jerusalem understood Jesus' words to apply to them:

Acts 4:32-34 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

I think that those who try to make Matthew 5-7 apply only to some future period of time and not for today are really missing God's blessings. This is the greatest problem with Dispensationalism for me. Great portions of Scripture that should be the way of life for us today are claimed to be reserved for some other time.

How does one tell what verses are to be taken literally rather than by principle? Simple - Talk to the One Whose Words they are. (See Romans 14)

P.S. Chette, anytime you are in Gainesville, you are welcome to stay at my house as long as you wish. As for the money, remember that the Scriptures say, "But whoso hath this world's good,..." I don't hath any money, so I'm off the hook on that one. (That is, of course, if I John counts today. )

[Diligent]

Brother Tim (and I take the Brother part very seriously! ),

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

As always, we should never take any passage of the Scriptures and isolate it away from the rest, for the Book is one and speaks as one.

Why are we commanded to divide it?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yes, there are passages that must be understood in context and not necessarily applied literally.

The problem is, the passages you do not want to apply literally did apply literally to someone else (or will). There are spiritual truths for me in Mosaic law, but those laws literally applied to Israel.

Now, Chette, with respect to borrowing/loaning in Matthew not applying to us. It appears to me that the early church in Jerusalem understood Jesus' words to apply to them:

Exactly -- Acts is transitional, from the Kingdom Gospel to Paul's Gospel. Paul hadn't yet been revealed the Mystery (which nobody knew about before Paul, Eph 3). Prior to Stephen's stoning, the Kingdom was still "at hand." Jesus was literally standing at the right hand of God (Ac 7:55), still ready to claim David's throne at that time. Acts 4 was still "kingdom readiness."

The ultimate "proof" of dispensational study to me, aside from the command to divide the word, is that Jesus' very own disciples did not expect the crucifixion of Christ and were yet "not lost." Peter even rebuked the Lord concerning his crucifixion (Mark 8:32) and even after he rose disbelieved it (Luke 24:11) -- hardly someone who was "looking ahead" to Christ's sacrifice! (Looking ahead? He wouldn't even look back at it!)

The New Testament shows Christ's own disciples, over and over again, having the Gospel we believe "hidden" from them. Since they were "not lost" (John 17:12), and since Paul says anyone who has the Gospel hidden from them is lost (2Cor 4:3), we are either left with a glaring contradiction, or have to face the fact that there is some dividing to do.

[Brother Tim]

Brandon, I see the phrase "rightly dividing" as describing the method used to understand the Scriptures, not that the Scriptures themselves are to be chopped into separate pieces and isolated.

Yes, it is obvious that portions of the Scriptures must be interpreted based on the time period of the passage. OT laws applied literally to the Jews of that day while painting the spiritual picture for us today. I cannot see, however, the many different "dispensations" that some of you see.

Let's pretend that you gave 100 believers who had never been exposed to any of the common interpretations the assignment of studying the Scriptures beginning to end until they were satisfied that they had gathered all that they could. Afterward you asked them to explain how the Scriptures fit together. I would venture to say that most if not all 100 would not see the dispensational prospective. At least I cannot imagine that they would see all of the little pieces that some of you folks see.

As for me, I am going to believe that the teachings of the NT are directly to be applied to my life, and that the principles of the OT laws are given for my learning. You folks can bypass Matthew, but I will rest in the confidence that it is written to me and for me.

[Brother Tim]

More amplification on the "100 believer" experiment:
I believe that most would see a distinction between the nation of Israel and the NT church. That is so obvious. After all, there is the OT, then the NT! (duh ) What would not be obvious is the splitting of the NT into the however-many parts that some teach.

This is not entirely a pretended experiment. I have throughout my 56 years of life and 36 years of ministry been exposed to the teachings of the Scriptures. I have had the opportunity to speak with many pastors and many more dedicated believers. The only ones that I have met that had a dispensational view (other than just the OT/NT split) were those who heard it or read about it from someone else and not the Scriptures themselves. None that I have spoken to personally have been able to explain how one discerns where each of the lines are drawn. In fact, it has only been in the past year that I heard that Matthew was not written to me. ( I must stop here for a moment and say that I spend almost no time reading commentaries, and do not own a "study" Bible - other than SwordSearcher. ) I would say that I do not fit into any of the labeled boxes that are so common today. My focus of study has been almost exclusively on the text issue. As for figuring out where all these parts are supposed to fit, I suppose that I will be behind the pack for a while. I just have far too many questions to be comfortable with any of the boxes yet. Thank the LORD, the future doesn't depend on me figuring it all out like the rest of you have.

Let me present you this idea and see if you can not look at the new testament a little different.

Up and until Jesus came everything pertaining to mankind was mankind's undoings.
I mean, there was absolutely nothing mankind could do to attain salvation.
Not even Moses, Abraham or any of the patriarchs.

Jesus was the end of that condition placed on mankind giving hope now to all mankind.

Grace was given, is given and will be given freely were as before the end, requirement was the necessity.
The law had to be complied with and we all know that was an impossibility.

The bible tells us it was for a reason. That being that only God gets the credit an no one else.

Now, coming to the NT, we find that grace is above all the gift of salvation and the law not a necessity.

That being the case, was rules are we going to be guided by then if grace is freely given without works?

Can we see Paul and His letters dictating certain behavioral patterns, things to watch out for and some observances to do?

We can say then that the new Testament is a workbook on working out the salvation that we already have been given it, yet not fully knowledgeable of all its benefits.

Behavioral problems are addressed plenty in the new testament because if we don't have any constitution to be governed by we all go amuck.

Take for instance a person who has found Christ and strives to learn all it can about Him, God and the bible.
Finds liberty in Jesus, and in maturity, desires, wants to live right and just with it fellow neighbors, being led in heart by God in him.

What rule, what regulation, what practice, what religious belief requires him to be free to love at will?

Folks, we are free to love unlimited, the soul of the people at our cost.
If we are free, should we have restrictions to require people by?

No! So, we work out those situations arising in modern day life and try to lead people to a better way by introducing God in Jesus.

If they know Jesus already we judge only their works, that is, in their works reflect not the love of Christ in them.

But we don't condemn for what Christ paid the price for; their souls.

That is my view as I now see it, where as before, I was bound by the belief that only I and some like I were the only ones going to make it because of this verse:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We all go through Jesus, for He paid the price for all souls, and there is none other name under heaven by which any soul can be saved.

We get tangled up in issues for a reason, and that to find the correct attitude to have.

If we find it, then we are free from it and are more the wiser as we gain wisdom in understanding and knowledge.

A good workbook contains many notes as remembrances of what and how we learned.

Peace>>>AJ

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Yes, it is obvious that portions of the Scriptures must be interpreted based on the time period of the passage. OT laws applied literally to the Jews of that day while painting the spiritual picture for us today. I cannot see, however, the many different "dispensations" that some of you see.

The one I am concerned about now is the one Paul says began with him:

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

This revelation, which Paul was given directly from God (not taught by men), began with Paul. It did not begin with John or Peter.

I am not a hyper-dispensationalist that disregards Scripture or slices it up into deli-thin slices of kosher meats. But I do recognize Paul's unique position as my apostle. Where you are rightly concerned about people losing blessings by disregarding truth in other portions of the Bible, I am equally concerned with the loss of blessing (and doctrine) that happens when people do not recognize the unique office of Paul, which no other man in the Bible ever had or will have.

Let's pretend that you gave 100 believers who had never been exposed to any of the common interpretations the assignment of studying the Scriptures beginning to end until they were satisfied that they had gathered all that they could. Afterward you asked them to explain how the Scriptures fit together. I would venture to say that most if not all 100 would not see the dispensational prospective. At least I cannot imagine that they would see all of the little pieces that some of you folks see.

Brother, Peter himself did not even see the crucifixion of Christ after it happened, even though it was foretold in the Old Testament and even though Jesus told Peter to his face what would happen. Peter couldn't understand it even after the Lord rose. And Peter couldn't get Paul's calling in Acts either. What 100 people can "agree" on does not concern me --what concerns me is what the Scripture says, and what concerns me now is what Paul said.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When Paul says something different than John or Peter or even the Lord in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, it is not because there is something for me to "harmonize," it is because there is something for me to divide.

As for me, I am going to believe that the teachings of the NT are directly to be applied to my life, and that the principles of the OT laws are given for my learning. You folks can bypass Matthew, but I will rest in the confidence that it is written to me and for me.

I don't know how you can do that. I know you believe you should, but these are not in harmony:

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

You simply can not obey both of these simultaneously. One is for you now, one is not.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Where you are rightly concerned about people losing blessings by disregarding truth in other portions of the Bible, I am equally concerned with the loss of blessing (and doctrine) that happens when people do not recognize the unique office of Paul, which no other man in the Bible ever had or will have.

Well put, Diligent. That's very true. I totally agree with you.

Hey Cheete, I was wondering, are you a pre-millenialist, I kinda figure you are, but Im not sure.

Her Aj, I have something for you to think of.

Let's say for a minute that you have a son. (I don't know if you do or not, im using this to illustrate something to you.) Hes your only son and you love him with all your heart and you plan on giving him every thing that you have. Now let say your son joins the Marines, a war starts and he willingly goes to fight so that you don't have to. Now lets say while he is fighting the good fight a sniper shoots him and he dies. Now when you here of it while you are sad that he died but you are proud that he died for you, and your country.
Now lets say you are at the funeral and some jerk starts making fun of your son, he calls him baby killer, and all sorts of things that simply are not true.
Wouldn't that upset you, yea you'ld would probably give the guy a fat lip at the very least.
Now take that and compare that to a Holy and Rigtouess God, who gave his only begotten Son, allowed him to become sin and die for the sins of mankind. And then some one lives his whole life blaspheming God's son, Calling him a liar and ignoring his sacrfice, you gonna tell me that God will just let that perosn into heaven without regard for his son the Lord Jesus?
Thats impossible, that would say that the Lord Jesus really didn't need to die, cause he was just going to let unrepentant Murderers, Child Perverts into heaven. God Is just, he does not tolorate sin, the only reason that we can come to him his because of his son. Remember, God will destroy his enemys, Paul said Phili 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)Ps 2:2-5 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Aj, you can believe whatever you want to believe, if you want to believe that elephants can fly, thats up to you, its a free country.
If you wan't to believe that even the most worst unrepentant sinner will get into heaven while rejectin the only begotten son of God who gave his life for all man, you may its your life. It is not wise to be teaching others, especially lost people that they need not to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because hell is not real and God will let them into heaven regardless of them believeing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hell is real, very real, and you can either let the Lord Jesus Christ pay for your sins on his cross, or you can spend eternity paying for your sins.

[Brother Tim]

Brandon, exactly when do the teaching of Jesus in Matt 5-7 take effect then?

"Blessed are" is present tense, so was this only for the disciples who followed Jesus during His earthly ministry?

Are you saying that Jesus was NOT instructing us today to:

...Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6:25-34)