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#61
04-03-2008, 04:50 AM
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I do have trouble following long threads at times. 
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#62
04-03-2008, 07:02 AM
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Wow! One thing this sure shows is Dr. Ruckman doesn't leave people "in the middle of the road". I read his "Black is Beautiful" book (it seemed weird to me). I used his commentary on "Revelation" and found it quite helpful. Of course there are beliefs he has I don't agree with, but, I can't say anything about him except what he has said in his writings.
Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones. Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. I know none of you outside this forum. However, some of you seem WAY to serious. You should lighten up, you are going to strain something. |
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#64
04-03-2008, 11:21 AM
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My, my, my, it looks like I missed a heavy one last night! I did not think that my sarchastic comment would incite such a roar. Maybe I should've put a little smiley face
 after the quotation of Dr. Ruckman speaking "with charity."At any rate, it's good to see most everyone has kissed, or at least hugged, and made up. Oh yeah, all this talk has moved me greatly to temporarily change my avatar. Last edited by pbiwolski; 04-03-2008 at 11:29 AM. |
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#65
04-03-2008, 01:50 PM
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Ephesians 5:3-4 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Matthew 12:34-37 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. James 3:2-8 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. Quote:
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#66
04-03-2008, 01:57 PM
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Luke 6:43-45 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. I can't find a specific verse that directly uses the word fruit in reference to false doctrine - however, there are various places where we are told to judge doctrine and critique it Biblically. Both Eph.5:3-4 & 11 do not apply here. You are referring to his marriages?[/QUOTE] No, I was referring to his words and doctrine. |
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#67
04-03-2008, 04:16 PM
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Re: Brother Jeff's post #55
George's reply to brother Jeff's post (#55)
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How is this criticizing Dr. Ruckman? (It wasn’t. Brother Jerry had 2 posts immediately before brother Tim’s post. In my haste to defend brother Ruckman I mistook Brother Tim’s post as being directed toward Ruckman. (I thought he was piling on) I was careless in my reading and I have apologized to Brother Tim. George, maybe all your words are just to much for me, or maybe my words aren't coming out right. Can you answer me clearly: (Now we’re getting somewhere) -Did you or did you not criticize Jerry and Brother Time for criticizing Dr. Ruckman? (Yes, and I was wrong to lump Brother Tim in with brother Jerry) -If you did: -Was it prompted by these last two quotes from them? (I don’t know what 2 quotes you are referring but it was prompted by posts #21, #22 (by Jerry) and post #23 by Brother Tim (which I mistakenly thought was criticizing Ruckman) -Were they out of line for asking these questions? (No questions were asked - brother Jerry was assigning sin to brother Ruckman (“Speaking in a crude manner is still sin” – Chapter & verse?) where there was no sin – unless he wants to include Paul & the Lord in on the accusation (since they both “unloaded” on “religious” people at times) -Were they even really an attacks on Dr. Ruckman? (Brother Tim’s wasn’t (my error). Brother Jerry’s definitely was – it’s a sin to assign a sin to a brother, if he hasn’t sinned). -Do they have the right to give their views? (Certainly! But in brother Jerry’s case it’s not a matter if he has the "right" - but is it "right"?) -If not, is that not a double standard to say they shouldn't give their views while those with opposing views go unchallenged? (If I were to insist on them not giving their views I would be a hypocrite – guilty of a double standard. However, I don’t believe that I am insisting that they not give their views – I’m saying that constant criticism of a brother in Christ is wrong, so why continue?) -Is it not a double standard to suggest that they should not criticize Dr. Ruckman as you criticize them? (I don’t believe so. To suggest to brethren that they should cease criticizing another brother in Christ (when they obviously know so very little about the man or his ministry – except for hear-say) is the Scriptural thing to do. To sit idly by or to encourage them would be wrong – why must God’s people constantly “bite and devour” each other? What happened to Christian charity?) -Do you criticize Geologist or whoever else defends Dr. Ruckman? (If they do something wrong, I would. (Telling a joke may not be “convenient” – but why should anyone get offended if it wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, and it was a JOKE after all, the brother wasn’t serious. Have we lost our sense of humor or are we so thin-skinned that we are offended when someone tells a harmless joke? By the way: All of our children are married - there have been several occasions during the course of their marriages where I have sided with my daughters-in-law when it was obvious that my sons were doing wrong. I try real hard not to practice “respect of persons”.) -Do you feel that whoever defends him should be free from any criticism? (Of course not (but it's not a matter of "feelings"). None of us should be free of criticism (if we can take it – that’s one way that we can learn & grow). However, I believe that the brethren should be circumspect in their criticism (which I failed to do in Brother Tim’s case) and not anxious to “pile on” to another brother – especially if they have very little personal knowledge of the brother or his ministry.) -Do you believe Jerry, Tim, or anyone else has the right to criticize Dr Ruckman? (Absolutely! But again, it’s not a matter of “rights”, it’s a matter of - is it the RIGHT thing to do? Do we, as brother Jerry often does, make wild accusations against a brother when most of those accusations are coming from another source (probably David Cloud) and could not be proven in a court of law?) -You have acknowledged that they have read some of his material, correct? (Brother Tim is out of the equation, so as far as brother Jerry is concerned – he has admitted to reading 2 books and a few articles by brother Ruckman. Peter Ruckman has written approximately 100 books; probably as many pamphlets or booklets; and hundreds of articles over almost 60 years of his ministry. On top of that, he has hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of audio and video tapes also. How can Jerry or anyone else judge this man if they haven’t even seen, read, or heard even 1% of his material? That’s been my point all along! However, David Cloud has a page on his web site that has 11 anti-Ruckman articles (most of which I read). I suspect that brother Jerry has gotten most of his information from Cloud’s site, since by his own admission he hasn’t actually read that much of Ruckman’s material – which would mean that he is judging by hearsay, not first hand knowledge. You know the verses dealing with that kind of judgment.) -If you don't believe they have the right to criticize him; why not? (Doesn’t apply, since I believe they have the “right” – although again the question comes up: is he “right” in doing so? -Have you never found anything Dr. Ruckman said or wrote not to be appropriate? (Brother Ruckman is not perfect, nor does he have all of the answers. There are areas where I disagree with him; areas where I question his judgment; and areas I can’t follow his reasoning. Having said that let me say that I have yet to meet anyone (Christian or not) who has read the Bible through 175 times – that puts me to shame by comparison. Ruckman has a nearly photographic memory (I have seen him preach 5 nights in a row (while doing an 8’ x 8’ chalk board drawing) where at each service he quoted from 50 to 100 hundred verses without looking up a single verse in his Bible! I have seen him 5 mornings in a row draw the entire history of the church and the transmission of the Biblical text on a 4’ x 16’ board without once referring to any notes! I have seen him answer any question (Scripturally) that anyone had from the audience about anything – in 10 seconds or less. To dismiss this man and make accusations about him that may not be true is not wise.) -Are you not saying Dr Ruckman should not be criticized by people who don't know him? (No. I am saying that the criticism should pointed, specific (not generalized) and verifiable. If not, we Christians shouldn’t be judging – but if some choose to ignore the Biblical command and wrongly slander brother Ruckman I for one am not going to sit idly by and let the accusations fly without challenging the accuser.) -Could we not say by the same argument that we should not criticize Jeremiah Wright? NO WE CAN’T! Up to now I believe that your questions have been fair, REASONABLE, and well thought out – but this kind of reasoning is beyond me. Comparing Wright to brother Ruckman is like comparing Cain to Able; the pagan kings to Abraham; Esau to Jacob; Pharaoh to Moses; King Saul to David; Ahab to Elijah; Hymenaeus or Alexander to Paul; or Judas to Peter! There is no comparison! Jeremiah Wright is a reprobate “preacher” of lies, hate, and coveteousness. Brother Ruckman is a child of God (warts and all). You couldn’t use the same argument in dealing with these 2 men than you could between Satan and God Almighty! -What's the difference? (See above. I hope that you can see the difference.) -Are you not saying we should end any discussion of the character of Dr. Ruckman right now because you don't like it? (Hardly! I keep going back to my main point: There is a difference between what we can do (because of "rights") and what we should do (because we Christians are supposed to be charitable, especially to those of the "household of God"). -If someone disagrees with you on this subject are they automatically wrong? (It all depends on where they are coming from. There’s a difference between being mistaken and having a personal vendetta against a fellow brother in Christ.) -Did you criticize Geologist for bringing this subject back up? (No, because he was just expressing his appreciation for brother Ruckman – brother Jerry could have let it lie, but he chose not to, and therein lies the “problem”. Every time someone comes into the Forum and expresses appreciation for brother Ruckman – Is he going to “set them straight” with his unwarranted attacks on him? If he does he can rest assured that he will be opening up another “can of worms” like this present “donnybrook”. The question is: Why can’t brother Jerry let sleeping dogs lie?”) -Did you find the remark having to do with sticking your head in a bucket appropriate? (I never gave it that much thought, since it was not addressed or directed at anyone in particular and it was a JOKE, after all – I have read or brother Ruckman use that line at least a dozen times or more and have never been offended by it – because it doesn’t apply to me!) -If not, why only criticize Jerry and Tim? (Discernment – that’s what this whole exercise has been about. A harmless joke directed at no one in particular is quite different than unfounded personal attacks upon a specific brother in Christ. I hope that you can see and understand the difference.) I just got your last post before I finished: Quote:
-If someone else brings it back up should they have no right to respond? (Why respond? There are a whole lot of threads on this Forum (some frivolous, silly and outright ridiculous; and others of a very serious spiritual and Scriptural nature) I do not respond to any of the former, and I try to carefully choose the ones that I do get involved in (but I sure blew it with Brother Tim – for which I am genuinely sorry). Why respond at all? Is Jerry obligated to tear down brother Ruckman every time someone says something positive about him? I don’t understand that kind of a “Christian” attitude. In addition: you'll notice that although I may have some differences brother David Cloud I have been real careful not to criticize him - I don't know him that well and what business is it of mine anyway?) -When is someone giving their opinions (especially based on reason), views, or convictions "uncalled for"? (If it’s their “opinion”, “views”, or “convictions” that’s one thing. Certainly you have the discernment to distinguish between those things and personal attacks on a brothers character and ministry? The former should be welcomed – the latter should be roundly condemned!) In closing I want to state: The 1st 10 years of my Christian life I bounced around from “pillar to post”, visiting various churches (brethren; independent Bible; Congregational; Pentecostal; Southern Baptist; and Independent Baptist. Not once in those 10 years did any one in positions of authority (elders-pastors, etc.) ever tell me about the Bible “issue”; not once did they tell me how to study the Bible; not once did they teach me how to “rightly divide” the word of God! When I got a hold of brother Ruckman’s books and tapes I learned those things. Strange isn’t it? No elder, pastor, or teacher in those 10 years did their job – but brother Ruckman did. Don’t you think that I should have a certain amount of appreciation for God using this man to open my eyes to the great “Truths” of the Bible, especially when no elder, pastor, teacher did? You can accuse me of being a Ruckmanite, but I refuse to accept the label (that’s how Humanists dismiss the truth – through labels). Most of my reading and listening of brother Ruckman’s material was done between the years of 1968 through the middle 1980’s. From the mid 1980’ to 2003 there were years that went by when I never read anything of his (you’ll have to accept my word for that). You see once you get the “principles" of rightly dividing the book down, you don’t need a man to “guide” you anymore. I don’t know much, but this one thing I do know (personally) about brother Peter Ruckman – God has used him mightily in the defense of His Holy Word and the brethren should be “very careful” when it comes to constantly criticizing him. God uses fallible men (warts, freckles, frailties & all) – Peter Ruckman is a “servant of the Most High God – let God judge him (you can be sure He will). Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word, George Anderson |
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#68
04-03-2008, 04:30 PM
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Brother jerry's Post #65
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John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: I "guess" I was wrong or am I? Why do so many modern day Christians "think" that hey can replace the Holy Spirit and God's word in this present world?
Last edited by George; 04-03-2008 at 04:38 PM. |
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#69
04-03-2008, 05:12 PM
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"doctrine and words are fruit" Wrong again brother! You must Scripturally distinguish between the "works" of the flesh and "fruit". The following is the Scriptural definition of "works" & "fruit": Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. You said: "doctrine and words are fruit" - and yet the Holy Bible contradicts you - which is right? Hmmm? "Doctrine"; "words"; & "works" are never "Fruit" - although "Fruit" can lead to "Good Works"; "Pure Words"; and "Sound Doctrine" - Never put the cart before the Horse! 
Last edited by George; 04-03-2008 at 05:21 PM. |
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