[pbiwolski]

Rev. 11, without a doubt shows two witnesses empowered by God during the tribulation to perform supernatural acts.

Granted - the descriptions of both fit Moses and Elijah* - but I am looking for any passages that indicate common true believers will be able to perform any kinds of signs and wonders and/or that these will be common occurences done by God (through believers) during that time period.

*Revelation 11 also does not use the terms signs and wonders. They are performing judgments and stopping the rain in Israel for 3 1/2 years.

[pbiwolski]

Well it has been a week since I proposed a challenge to all of you who believe that "that which is perfect" is the completed scriptures. My challenge is posted on page 4 of this thread and no one has replied. (Jerry's sidestepping reply was not to the challenge, but to a side note. Biblestudent did not reply, but rather decided to quickly change the subject.)

I know why there are no replies, for the challenge asks of you to produce something that cannot be produced from scripture. To back up your belief/view, there must be at least one example in his post-I Cor. writings to indicate that Paul did not have a clear understanding of the available scriptures. This example would clearly prove that when writing I Cor. there was at least one thing for which he was waiting that was not yet revealed to him. This revelation would clear up this "dark glass" that he as well as the Corinthians were looking through. But you sit and think and...nothing. You search Paul's epistles...and still nothing. How can this be? It has to be in there, right?!?

Wrong.

Because you cannot and will not produce such evidence to fortify your theory, I authoritatively proclaim that Paul did not "know in part" in relation to coming revelations/scriptures, but rather he knew only in part just as we do today. Therefore, "that which is perfect" is yet to come, and one day... (maybe today!)...

I didn't reply, because I already stated my opinion/understanding of this issue - but it is not a dead horse I want to or feel the need to keep beating. I did not sidestep any issues or questions, but addressed other things that came up in addition to 1 Corinthians 13. Brandon has stated he does not agree with my position, and it is his website, so I let it be.

[pbiwolski]

No, I already stated why you and everyone else did not reply, and using Brandon's opinion as an alibi to back down is pretty weak. The truth is that you're backed into a corner with your theory, and you know you'll get tagged if you try anything funny to get out.

I've said enough, and I'm not looking to drive this into the ground.

You know - it is still a sin to judge someone's motives. You are not God - and I stated my reason for not replying.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Well it has been a week since I proposed a challenge to all of you who believe that "that which is perfect" is the completed scriptures. My challenge is posted on page 4 of this thread and no one has replied. (Jerry's sidestepping reply was not to the challenge, but to a side note. Biblestudent did not reply, but rather decided to quickly change the subject.)

My hands are full this week and next week and next week and next week... It's summer here - evangelism time. Despite my voice problem, I have to preach every night now even though I have to whisper through the microphone. I'm our church's jeepney driver (equivalent to the "bus ministry" in the US), pianist, music director, Sunday School superintendent, kinder school administrator, and pastor, and also part time janitor.
Not only that, I am a teacher in a Bible college and a high school teacher. One would think I am a "super rich" person doing all these. I am not. You know, this is often how the ministry goes in our country - multiple jobs, and you don't even get paid equivalent to one job. I say this cheerfully. My church loves the Lord,and they love me, their pastor. I am neither murmuring nor asking for pity. There is joy in serving Jesus. But I'm afraid to see my work go up in smoke before the Judgment Seat of Christ. So there is nothing to brag when I am an "unprofitable servant" who have only done that which was my duty to do. Just want to serve my Lord the best I could. (Hope, this is a blessing and an encouragement to all of you and not a cursing to me.)

Having said all that, I think you will understand if I ask you to allow me some time "off" from this forum. OK?
Should you say that I am simply giving an alibi for not having a ready answer to your challenge, the fact that you said I "decided to quickly change the subject" is the reason why I need to read and give my answers carefully - and that requires me TIME now. That I have proof or don't have proof for my posts, I'll look at them again later. As for now, I enjoy reading and learning from y'all. See ya!

[Biblestudent]

Hey, I'm back, but now with hands full. So, I hope I'm answering right on target.

1. First, if "that which is perfect" is the coming of Jesus Christ at the Second Coming (on earth), then there will be no more prophesyings and speaking in tongues after that, which is true. BUT...

Isn't the Rapture a coming of Jesus Christ? Isn't that a "face to face" with Christ? Are we going to speculate that the coming referred to in 1 Corinthians is the Second Coming of Christ on earth and not the Rapture of the Church?

If the "in part" shall be done away at the Second Coming (on earth), does it mean that at the Rapture, with glorified bodies, we STILL know in part??

2. Next, if "that which is perfect" is the coming of Jesus Christ at the Rapture, then there will be no more prophesyings and speaking in tongues after that. BUT...

According to Joel 2 and Acts 2, in the "last days" WHEN the sun and moon be darkened, in the "day of the Lord", the Holy Spirit will be "poured out" and the shall dream dreams and see visions - there goes prophesyings after the Rapture.
(By the way, I didn't have time to put all Scripture references here. But should anyone think it's all speculation, I'm willing to show the verses.)

Mark 16 tells us that "these signs shall follow them that believe" to confirm the word of the gospel of the kingdom which will also be preached during the Tribulation period. Gospel of the kingdom REQUIRES signs - tongues included! So tongues will be used after the Rapture.

Now we know "in part", but when Jesus comes at the Rapture, the "in part" knowledge shall vanish away. What about the tongues? What about prophesyings? They're mentioned TOGETHER in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Why take one and leave the other?
Remember, that in the first century (before the completed revelation of the mystery and of the canon), they know "in part" and thus needed TONGUES (as a sign to confirm the word to the Jew during the Acts transition period) and PROPHESYINGS (since the prophecy of Scripture is not yet complete).

[Biblestudent]

pbiwolski: "To back up your belief/view, there must be at least one example in his post-I Cor. writings to indicate that Paul did not have a clear understanding of the available scriptures. This example would clearly prove that when writing I Cor. there was at least one thing for which he was waiting that was not yet revealed to him. This revelation would clear up this "dark glass" that he as well as the Corinthians were looking through. But you sit and think and...nothing. You search Paul's epistles...and still nothing. How can this be? It has to be in there, right?!?

Wrong.

Because you cannot and will not produce such evidence to fortify your theory, I authoritatively proclaim that Paul did not "know in part" in relation to coming revelations/scriptures, but rather he knew only in part just as we do today. Therefore, "that which is perfect" is yet to come, and one day... (maybe today!)..."

1. Paul did have a CLEAR understanding of the available Scriptures, but he knows "in part" because "all Scripture" is NOT yet available to make the man of God "perfect".

2. Paul knew and prophesied "in part" because "perfect" knowledge of the unavailable was impossible and prophecy to fill in that which was yet missing was a necessity.

3. To make "that which is perfect" to refer to Christ's coming seems a stretch, since the context (1 Cor. 12-14) defines the "in part" as referring to the gifts that are going to vanish WHEN "that which is perfect is come". Are we to prophesy in part, know in part, heal in part, speak in tongues in part until the Rapture? Notice that the chapter (1 Cor.13) begin with TONGUES (v.1) and again mentioned tongues (v.8). Are we to speak in tongues until the Rapture? Forbid not to speak in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, but 1 Corinthians 13 says tongues shall cease. When? At the Rapture?

4. In answer to your challenge, show me that Paul had all of the Word of God in 1 Corinthians and I will show you that he received all the other "visions and revelations" after that.

Finally, I know that we know "in part", in the practical sense, until Jesus comes. So I am open to either view. But I know also that we no longer know "in part", in the doctrinal/dispensational sense, since we have the "perfect" Word of God and it is NOW made MANIFEST.

[pbiwolski]

Thanks for the reply, but....

You "slice your own throat" with your line of thinking. To quote Joel and the outpouring of the Spirit hurts your stand on "that which is perfect" just as you suggest it does mine.
Think about it. That won't help, nor does it take away from my position. The sabbath has been done away, but it will certainly be reinstituted (Col.2)...

To pt. 1 above:
You cannot "see through a glass darkly" and call it "clear."

To pt. 2:
Now you have the "unavailable," so show me what he received from the Lord that proves his knowledge of the "glass" to be "in part."

To pt. 3:
The sign gifts are surrounding the passage, true; but the primary focus of the chapter deals with charity. So what if Paul throws something else in there on the side? He does it in all his epistles. When he moves to knowledge, he parks there for awhile. Many read the sign gifts into verse 12, but he's only talking about what he does or doesn't know.

To pt. 4:
I never said that Paul had all the word of God. I said that Paul has all knowledge pertaining to God's word revealed to him.

Now, I'd like to hear your best explanation of what Paul means when he says, ...but then shall I know even as also I am known. No one touches this statement. Will you?