That was the reason why God tried Adam and Eve, to give them a chance to be perfect.>>>Josh

Let me take this one sentence of yours and lets look at your words “to give them a chance to be perfect”.

If God wanted me to learn how to swim wouldn’t He throw me into the water?
I mean, to be perfect, would mean to walk on the water and never get to learn anything, much less experience learning what it is to swim. (Struggle)

So God designed it to where we had to struggle to learn, and the only way to do that is to place us on earth, a place where all flesh including the animals have to struggle to survive.

If Eve would have resisted the Devil, and Adam would have obeyed God, regardless of what might happen, Adam and eve would have been perfect.>>>Josh

Nothing can be gained in a perfect state, there must be an opposite, to measure the difference of accomplishment.

But because Eve was deceived and Adam chose to disobey God, we became sin.>>>Josh

If God did not tell you that you were going to be born into a world that lives only for the pleasure of it, then He deceived you and I.

Its like falling into a trap without us knowing at first, but then He provides a way of escape, but not before first learning about it.

Because of that, as you say God if he was going to save his people he had to save them himself.>>>Josh

Now your getting the picture!

That is why God sent his only Begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was born of a Virgin. The fact that he was born of a Virgin is ever so important. You see, if Jesus would have been born just as any other human being, his birth would have just been another birth and nothing special. >>>Josh

Again, your right on!

The most important reason was this. Sin is in the blood of every human being. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23

Yes, again!

That is why any human being that is born of a woman if that person lives past the age of accountability and dies without the Lord Jesus Christ will pay for his sins for all eternity in hell,>>>Josh

OK, here is where you do not understand an important point.
The point is that mankind can not of it self save itself by any thing mankind does, so that places everybody in the same boat, hopeless.

So that God now can become our savior, save us by removing the stigma of eternal damnation to all of humanity, not just those who know Him personally, but all those who don’t either.

…and then the Lake of Fire. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:", Rom 5:12 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." Rom 5:17

God is an all consuming fire, and consumes all sin as goal is tried 7 times to pure gold.

So the lake of fire is a metaphor for Gods consuming fire, to where if it were not so, then lets all give up, for only Gods righteousness can save us.

If the Lord Jesus Christ had the blood of Joseph in his veins, he would been guilty of sin because we are all under sin that are born of the flesh, but because he was a born of a Virgin, he wasn't tainted with mans blood because he had God's blood.>>>Josh

God’s spirit, because God has no blood.

You see the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, and he saves us by his grace. But we can in no wise receive grace from God until we believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ"

God gave us an option, and that option is without penalty, for Jesus paid for that option for us.

The option is to believe or not to believe, which shall it be?

Don’t confuse Gods deliverance of our souls with the works we do, for our works are as filthy rags.

So that means, whether we are righteous nor not, He still saves us, because it is He whose righteousness saves us, and not ours.

So what difference then is there?

Allot of difference, in that our own righteousness is rewarded here on earth, and our unrighteousness is met with consequences, still will be saved.

Salvation is open to all who will believe, but you must by your own will choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God will not force anyone to believe on his son the Lord Jesus; you must chose to do so by your own will. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". John 3:16>>>Josh

Yes, to “want” to believe in Jesus means entrance into His kingdom while yet in this body of flesh, but if not, then we suffer without Him until we die, and then we shall be redeemed, because He paid the price and not us.


The responsibility to save us is Gods, not ours.
Our responsibility is to learn to be like Him by trial and error, as you might know, that this world can be hell for many people.

Peace>>>AJ

[Easy E]

Wow Aj, that is an impressive piece of wresting the scriptures!

God has no blood? Acts 20:28? Wow, why do you even post on a forum about the Bible when you don't believe in the Bible?

Let me be clear. Your 'doctrine' will send people to Hell. Yes it exists. It is not a metaphor. Read Luke 16. Verse 24 does not say,

"And in a metaphor for God's consuming fire he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Your ideas do not fit what the verse actually says. If your ideas are true (which they aren't) don't do anything and it won't matter because we will all end up in heaven anyways. I would advise you to stop posting and I will do the same.

Good day to you.

Originally Posted by Easy E

Wow Aj, that is an impressive piece of wresting the scriptures!

God has no blood? Acts 20:28? Wow, why do you even post on a forum about the Bible when you don't believe in the Bible?

Let me be clear. Your 'doctrine' will send people to Hell. Yes it exists. It is not a metaphor. Read Luke 16. Verse 24 does not say,

"And in a metaphor for God's consuming fire he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Your ideas do not fit what the verse actually says. If your ideas are true (which they aren't) don't do anything and it won't matter because we will all end up in heaven anyways. I would advise you to stop posting and I will do the same.

Good day to you.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Was God in the flesh? If yes, then Jesus had blood. But the blood was shed, for:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus had blood because of the flesh, but God doesn't, for He is Spirit.

Jesus shed His blood for us, then He was resurrected without blood.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


EasyE, You do understand that there is a spiritual picture painted in all the stories in the bible?

If we look only at the human story side of the stories, we are limited to just what those stories tell us, but if we look at the spiritual side of those stories, we see a different picture, and that is a spiritual picture painted of God's works.

Can you give me the spiritual picture of Christ in Jonah and the whale story?

Would you say that in order for Jesus to forgive "all" sin, He must "consume all of it" before He could forgive it?

Do you think that Jesus could of have called ten thousand angels to His rescue?

He didn't why? Because He had to consume it all in complete surrender, otherwise, how could He teach forgiveness as a gift of God?

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

JOB 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and
said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

I alone , Jesus, as fallen from Heaven to the earth, have consumed all sin in order to forgive it.

And I alone have escaped:
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus' having the sins of the world has been forgiven, thus offering us the righteousness of God for our salvation.

Let's look in all of it, at the works of God (At the spiritual side) and you will find God to be more loving than a condemning God.

A consuming fire in spiritual terms is a cleansing fire, as in the fire of Christ burning within us, burning away the dross, the hay ans stubble.

As in the tongues of fire:
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Cloven tongues? Hmmmmm?

Peace>>>AJ

Aj, first I must say that I notice that you don't give any Bible reference for any of your arguments. If you are a Bible believer you should always back your self up with scripture. When you don't you sound as though you are your own athourity, and the Bible should be your final athourity.
You teaching someone that it doesn't matter wether or not someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because God's grace will save you, even if your live your life Blaspheming God and cursing his name and his Son, the Lord Jesus. You are putting your self in a dangerous position.
You are either calling God a liar, because the person who speakes the most about hell in the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus preached more about hell because he did not want you to go there. Now either God is lying considering that Jesus is God the Son, God in the flesh, the Word, Jehova, and the great I AM. Or your bearing your lying.
Considering that God is perfect with out error, (and so is his word by the way, the AV1611.) he can not and will not lie, so there for hell is real and you are decieveing dear souls who may other wise be led to the saving knowlege of Jesus Christ.
You can not enter heaven unless you believe on the Lord Jesus.
" ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:11-15
You see, Hell is real, death is real, Heaven is real and the Lake of Fire is real.
Where you spend eternity is all depenent on what you do with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will believe on him and trust in him, you shall live forever with him in eternity. But if you or any body living, from the Cross of Christ till the rapture, if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will face a wrath full and angry God. "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
Have a Good day,
Josh

Aj, first I must say that I notice that you don't give any Bible reference for any of your arguments. If you are a Bible believer you should always back your self up with scripture. When you don't you sound as though you are your own authority and the Bible should be your final authority.>>>Josh

The bible is my only authority an one from which I base all my views from.
I do give bible references many times, but in cases where there are believers, many of the things I say are known to the believers.

God is a consuming fire is referenced and many believers have knowledge of that verse, but look at it differently.
My view of a consuming fire of God is His unconditional love, one which can forgive the most ardent sinner.

You teaching someone that it doesn't matter whether or not someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because God's grace will save you, even if your live your life Blaspheming God and cursing his name and his Son, the Lord Jesus. You are putting your self in a dangerous position.>>>Josh

Josh, considering your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures, which I acknowledge as admirable, I believe that my views presently are in direct accordance with the works of God as per His word.

You may not readily understand what I just said, because one has to understand where I’ve been, how I got to where I am at, and what, I believe the Lord has revealed to me.

God is greater than what humanity has given Him credit for, I mean in forgiveness of the greatest offenses.

True, there is human disobedience of which meets with dire consequences, but God made provisions for the soul of mankind simply because mankind had no choice in the matter. (Hence the free gift)

Ref: Fittingly, Paul who knew more than what He was able to say understood some deep truths and of which gave us some clues, here’s one: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Couple that verse with the story of Adam and Eve and you will begin to understand just what the tree of knowledge is and how mankind was subjected to it without its will, and at the same time see how Gods work worked to free mankind up by later providing that other tree of knowledge, the tree of life, which we all know it is Jesus.

I look at the story of Gods works from the top down and not from the bottom up.
From the bottom up we can only see through a glass darkly because of the lack of revelation by the Holy Spirit, but when He does reveal to us blessed truths, then we begin to see through the glass clearly.

When that happens, then there is no longer any fear because there is wisdom in understanding of knowledge.

You are either calling God a liar, because the person who speaks the most about hell in the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus preached more about hell because he did not want you to go there. Now either God is lying considering that Jesus is God the Son, God in the flesh, the Word, Jehovah, and the great I AM. Or you’re bearing your lying. >>>Josh

Llt me explain how to understand or look at that.

Prior to Jesus going to the cross, Jesus had to meet every dot and cross every T in prophecy, meaning that everything remained the same as far as the souls of mankind were concerned.

But, after Jesus paid the price, there no longer remaineth a penalty for sin keeping us from our eternal destiny.
Ref: Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What it is saying here which is consistent with the forgiveness of sins by God, is that there is no longer a sacrifice for sins preventing us from gaining heaven.

The sins we do commit, are required of us while we are yet alive, for the wages of those sins is death of the body and not the soul.

That’s the good news; the problem being is that we have not proclaimed it in a loving manner, but rather in a way which alienates by the use of fear, mainly the fear of hell.

Considering that God is perfect with out error, (and so is his word by the way, the AV1611.) he can not and will not lie, so there for hell is real and you are deceiving dear souls who may other wise be led to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.>>>Josh

If I say Jesus took death and hell away in order to save us, is that deciveing?
Ref:
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Jesus was accused of blaspheming did they not? Why? Could it be that they were blinded, deceived in order for God to work His work?

Ref: Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Likewise, I am accused of blasphemy too because of my understanding and you’re understanding me not.

You can not enter heaven unless you believe on the Lord Jesus. >>>Josh

That is an absolute truth!

" ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:11-15
You see, Hell is real, death is real, Heaven is real and the Lake of Fire is real.>>>Josh

Yes its real, only if one can not see passed the glass darkly.

What do you suppose the fate of all those souls who lived and died who have not had the privilege of knowing that there was even a God, much less knowing who Jesus was?
You think God created them only to abandon them? Of course not? So God had them on hold, suspended between heaven and earth, called hell.

There Jesus went to visit them, to give them the same life given to us as a gift.


Where you spend eternity is all dependent on what you do with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will believe on him and trust in him, you shall live forever with him in eternity. But if you or any body living, from the Cross of Christ till the rapture, if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will face a wrath full and angry God. "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
Have a Good day,
Josh>>>Josh

Again Josh, look at the timing of those words, was it before Jesus went to the cross or after the cross, which is it?

How could believing in the Son prior to His sacrifice give them life? Was it not by the sacrifice that we now have life?

Is a forgiving, loving God wrathful and condemning? Does forgiveness and condemnation not cancel themselves out?

But if we reverse those two and place condemnation first, then forgiveness, we’ll we not have life then?

I am looking to give some deeper nuggets of understanding only to those who would seek a deeper knowledge of God, as I have.

The span of separation (hell) has been bridged, no longer holding prisoners.
…. “; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…”.
Where are they?

Sorry for being so long, but I had to address your concerns.

Peace>>>AJ

[chette777]

Dispensationalism is a form of Study (Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth) that men or women make distinctions between was applicable in the Past, what is applicable today and what is applicable in the future.

though all the Bible is written to us is is not ALL FOR us.

Rightly dividing the Word allows us to see how God is dealing differently with men today than he did in the past and how He will in the future.

failure to use this kind of study leads people to Sabbath Day Rest as a way to please God and giet his favor. also some have you being a vegetarian because Adam was after the fall. but the NT tells us those who would teach you to abstain from meat are teaching Doctrines of Devils.

those of you who use the scriptures for Sabbath Day Rest on Saturday would not submit to Mat 5 where it says give unto him that asketh and to him that borrow turn not away.

Can you give me an explanation for your 3 sevens chette?

Rightly dividing the word; could it be making a distinction between mans views and Gods?

Every person worships as their heart dictates, whether on Saturday, Sunday or any day of the week.

For God looks at the heart and not the day, the meat, the stance, race, color, religion.

Peace>>>AJ

[chette777]

No rightly dividing God's word is according to his word and your diligent study of it. the Holy Ghost teaches all things pertaining to doctrine and God's Word. but when we are not right with God we can get off base with His Word.

I am not saying anyone should worship on the sabbath only or rest on that day only. I pointed out how others have come up with Bad Doctrine by not rightly dividing. and that being some of it. but you are right, any day is fine as long as your right with God on it. but those who would say we have the mark of the beast because we don't worship or rest on Satuday are teaching a false dactrine. and those who would say we are sinners because we eat meat and tell their congregations they must abstain from it are teaching doctrines of devils according to the scriptures. Both those doctrines come from not rightly dividing the word of truth.

I agree God looks at the heart of every living soul only those who are his have a special privilge to have the Holy Ghost living in them to teach them and to help them study the word of God. an unsaved person can learn only one true thing from the Bible, Salvation. and if they don't get salvation the rest of the Bible is hard for them to understand and they will twist it to their own diestruction.

As far as My three Sevens I dont have any. I worship everyday, I rest when I can, I do my best abstain from all things that are sinful or give the appearance of Sin. I eat anything placed in front of me as long as it contains no blood or human flesh, and I sanctify it by the word and Prayer.

I as well as all Christians are a speacial group of people meant to be Christ's glory and to glorify our Lord for all eternity.

May you continue to glorify him as well.

There has to be something to dispensation, because God told Noah to build an arc, does that mean that you should build an arch. You may if you want to, but It wouldn't save you from anything, and of course God wasn't telling you to build an archa because God is not going to flood the earth again. Genesis 9
Also Moses could not have done what Romans 10:9 says because he did not no the name of the Lord Jesus Christ because God had not revealed that to him. He new that God would provide a saviour, even Job said "I know that my redemer livith" Job 27. Also Abrahams bosom is also prof that the old testement saint was not saved as we are now.

[chette777]

joshjefflawn

great observations of how dispensational study works.

Nor would any submit to Matthew 5:42 basically says to give to him that ask and to him that would borrow turn not away.