[premio53]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

But you see, when was the rejection? Was it before or after the crucifixion? The rejection was not the crucifixion, although it had some part to do with it. It was necessary for Him to die because He had to become a Priest first before He could become a King which was a major part of the stumbling of first century Jews. I see the rejection of the offer of the kingdom where Winman does not see it. I do say that rightly dividing the word of truth is not as clear cut as we would like it to be, but the preaching of the tribulation and Christ coming to sit on the throne of David was for Jews who were about to receive their kingdom if they were so willing, not to just get forgiveness of sins.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
I might add that after the crucifixion the commission was no longer strictly to the "house of Israel" (Matthew 10) but to "all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by premio53

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
I might add that after the crucifixion the commission was no longer strictly to the "house of Israel" (Matthew 10) but to "all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

And those Jews out of "all nations" were present at Jerusalem in Acts 2, and not manifest in Ephesians 3:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The "great" commission of Matthew 28 was not the only "commission" given to the 12 Apostles, there were five "commissions", and all dealing only with the Jews. Our commission, Pauls', is in Acts 9:15.

Grace and peace

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

I don't necessarily have time to pick through Winman's post right now, all though I do say that I do agree with a couple of things that he said. The only thing I have to ask right now is why did John the Baptist and Jesus keep saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand and then start telling people how to get in to the kingdom of heaven if it there was no possible way for it to show up for another 2000+ years?

Good question and here is a good answer: They were given a choice to accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, King, and High Priest and chose not to and fell(Rom. 11), the Jewish-Gentile Body was called through Paul, not Peter, James and John(Ephesians 3)to provoke the Jews to jealousy. With right division you end up with the truth and understanding, without it you end up with Roman Catholicism and the Christian Talmud of semi-Catholic "fundamentalists" running around preaching the "gospel" of Peter, James, and John "to all the world" without signs following.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[premio53]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

And those Jews out of "all nations" were present at Jerusalem in Acts 2, and not manifest in Ephesians 3:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The "great" commission of Matthew 28 was not the only "commission" given to the 12 Apostles, there were five "commissions", and all dealing only with the Jews. Our commission, Pauls', is in Acts 9:15.

Grace and peace

Tony

I missed the part where it said "Jews" out of "all nations." I do know that the apostle Paul said that said that the Gospel went to the "Jews first" (Romans 1:16).

I also know what Peter said.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The same gospel as Paul.

[premio53]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Good question and here is a good answer: They were given a choice to accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, King, and High Priest and chose not to and fell(Rom. 11), the Jewish-Gentile Body was called through Paul, not Peter, James and John(Ephesians 3)to provoke the Jews to jealousy. With right division you end up with the truth and understanding, without it you end up with Roman Catholicism and the Christian Talmud of semi-Catholic "fundamentalists" running around preaching the "gospel" of Peter, James, and John "to all the world" without signs following.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

I know many old fashioned Baptist preachers who don't "end up with Roman Catholicism" but preach simply "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2):21) just like Paul did. Scripture can be wrongly divided as well as rightly divided.

[George]

Originally Posted by premio53

I know many old fashioned Baptist preachers who don't "end up with Roman Catholicism" but preach simply "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2):21) just like Paul did. Scripture can be wrongly divided as well as rightly divided.

premio53,

Why don't you introduce yourself. Tell us a little about yourself. Here you are, a perfect stranger (we don't even know if you are a man or a woman), making a lot of comments, and we have NO IDEA WHO you are; or WHERE you've been; or WHAT you believe.

The only thing that we know about you (at this point) is you have Posted your "personal opinions" on Scriptural matters; and personally, I don't like discussing spiritual matters with total strangers. And in addition, people's "personal opinions" don't mean very much to many of us on the AV1611 Bible Forums. We get so much of people's "personal opinions" here (many of them totally wrong and contrary to Scripture) that people's "personal opinions" are just like water off a ducks back.

[premio53]

Originally Posted by George

premio53,

Why don't you introduce yourself. Tell us a little about yourself. Here you are, a perfect stranger (we don't even know if you are a man or a woman), making a lot of comments, and we have NO IDEA WHO you are; or WHERE you've been; or WHAT you believe.

The only thing that we know about you (at this point) is you have Posted your "personal opinions" on Scriptural matters; and personally, I don't like discussing spiritual matters with total strangers. And in addition, people's "personal opinions" don't mean very much to many of us on the AV1611 Bible Forums. We get so much of people's "personal opinions" here (many of them totally wrong and contrary to Scripture) that people's "personal opinions" are just like water off a ducks back.

Brother, this is the internet, not a local church. I just wanted to discuss scripture with other Christians. I will say that I am nothing but an old fashioned Baptist saved by the grace of God.

What makes my opinion any worse or better than anyone elses if I back it up with scripture?

[George]

Originally Posted by premio53

Brother, this is the internet, not a local church. I just wanted to discuss scripture with other Christians. I will say that I am nothing but an old fashioned Baptist saved by the grace of God.

What makes my opinion any worse or better than anyone elses if I back it up with scripture?

premio53,

So the "internet" is an "EXCUSE" not to be courteous and hospitable? Since you CHOOSE to remain A "STRANGER" - I CHOOSE to have NOTHING to do with you - "old-fashioned Baptist" or not!

WHY would a genuine born again "old-fashioned Baptist" not want to share his "testimony"? Hmmm?

[premio53]

Originally Posted by George

premio53,

So the "internet" is an "EXCUSE" not to be courteous and hospitable? Since you CHOOSE to remain A "STRANGER" - I CHOOSE to have NOTHING to do with you - "old-fashioned Baptist" or not!

WHY would a genuine born again "old-fashioned Baptist" not want to share his "testimony"? Hmmm?

I have no idea why you are offended. Do you disagree with what I have posted? If so you are welcome to show where I am wrong. I told you I am a Baptist saved by grace. I don't understand.

Originally Posted by premio53

I know many old fashioned Baptist preachers who don't "end up with Roman Catholicism" but preach simply "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2):21) just like Paul did. Scripture can be wrongly divided as well as rightly divided.

You are correct brother, scripture can be wrongly divided.
I think you will find that there are several levels of dispensational doctrine being taught on this board. Most of us are going to subscribe to a "moderate" dispensational teaching, but there are a few on here that in my opinion go beyond that into the realm of Hyperdispensationalism, and their chopping never ceases, night or day. For more on that here are a few articles:
http://cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultrad...m-ironside.htm
http://www.victory-baptist.net/hyper.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/hy...tionalism.html

On the other hand, I think brother George has done a good job warning about the quagmires associated with taking things too far, for example you will find that both George and Chette are in support of water baptism for believers. I think for the most part we have all tried to avoid the division this can create, while still allowing for some discussion. I think it is safe to say we ALL have disagreed with each other on SOME issues, at SOME time. But to me that is not a bad thing as long as it doesn't get out of control.

As I say, sometimes dispensationalism can be a divisive issue for Christians. But all of this in no way impacts our full support for the authority of the King James Bible, and even though we all may squabble from time to time on some issues, the heart of the forum is the inerrancy of the King James Bible and I can tell you that we all rally together as brothers to defend it when needed. My personal suggestion is that you "tread softly" here for a while until you get the lay of the land.