[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

Tbones,

I agree with most of what you shared.

However I don't believe or think that Baptism is an OT law. I would not liken it to the washing of priest in the Aronic priesthood. As these Israelite's being Baptized by John. and John himself would be in violation for that washing was ONLY for the priestly cast. the washing was for cleansing and Baptism today in both the HS and the Physical are not for cleansing.

The Baptism was a new thing even Pharisees would not/could not say where it came from. For if it was from the Law, as you claim, they could of answered Christ's question of where it came from and Jesus would of had to tell them who gave him authority to forgive sin.

I agree with the dispensational view of Baptism of Matt 28

I also agree that Paul never taught it.

Bro Tim, Philip was a disciple and Apostle Matt 10:3 lists him as an apostle and he was present at the time of the Lords ascension. the point is it was a direct act of obedience to Matt 28 because Philip was a disciple and the Eunuch was a proselyte to Judaism.

Chette, what I am responding to you with will be repeated with our other brothers, I love and respect all of you and I think rather than "please read message number blah blah..." I'd like to answer each of you individually.

If we look at Matthew 28, standing right next to the Apostles with Gill's Commentary On The Whole Bible in our hands, and we've followed the Lord in Believer's Baptism and excited over where we are going to find the Scripture to back those terms up, we see we have been commanded to go to Judea and Galilee, then Samaria and on into the whole world and preach the gospel of the death. burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world, and baptize them in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost so that our converts can follow the Lord in Believer's Baptism as a public profession of our faith, even though we are confused over which baptism Paul meant when he said, "one Lord one Faith one baptism..."...

The Great Commission of Matthew 28 was the Apostle's gospel of the kingdom of heaven of Exodus 19, that John the Baptist (a Levite) came preaching the baptism(washing) of repentence to fulfill the first step in consecrating Israel a kingdom of priests. John was a Levite priest, the last OT prophet. Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, were prophets.
David ben Jesse was a king and a prophet. Here we are in 2009 and if we search the Scriptures we see Jesus Christ was a prophet(Times Past, minister to the circumcision), a priest(But Now, consecrated a high priest after the order of Melchisedek, not Aaron), and king(Ages To Come, Millenial Kingdom and Eternity).

John the Baptist was a priest after the order of Aaron and a prophet and came to consecrate first the nation of Israel by the washing of repentence and then Jesus Christ would perform the second act of consecration, the pouring out of the oil(the Holy Spirit).

First act of consecration:

Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

Second act of consecration:

Le 8:10 And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them.
11 And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them.
12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.

Oil is a like figure, a similitude, of what?

The Holy Spirit.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

We know the "fire" of the above verse was directed at the Pharisees and unbelievers and is the lake of fire, that He will immerse and wash them in.

So John the Baptist, a Levite priest, came to consecrate Israel as a kingdom of priests under the kingdom of heaven gospel of Ex. 19 and Isaiah 61, which Jesus Christ preached in Luke 4, while the second act of consecration of this kingdom of priests, the pouring out of the sanctifying oil(Holy Ghost) was the job of Jesus Christ, the HIGH PRIEST after the Order of Melchisedek.

In Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 we see John referring to the future administration of the Universe:

Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I've identified a KINGDOM of Priests, I will now identify a BODY of Kings:

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Chette, it's been nice knowing you, here is where I get booted and banned from the forum:

There is not a drop of water in Matthew 28, becasue everywhere the words "baptize" shows up, we are conditioned to see "water".

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The baptism of Matthew 28 is not in water, but in the name of the Lord: the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost.

Ge 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Ex 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
De 18:5 For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.
De 18:7 Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before the LORD.
Jud 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
2Sa 7:26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
2Sa 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name.
1Ki 8:33 When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:
1Ki 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:
1Ki 8:41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name‘s sake;
1Ki 8:43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.
1Ki 8:44 If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house that I have built for thyname:
1Ki 8:48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
1Ch 17:24 Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee.
2Ch 6:20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.
2Ch 6:24 And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house;
2Ch 6:26 When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;
2Ch 6:33 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

There are around 300-400 references in the OT for the Name of the Lord. Sister Tandi probably thinks because I am a dreaded "dispensationalist" that I don't know the Old Testament. There are orthodox Jewish rabbis can't keep up with me on knowing the Old Testament.

The sad thing is there are too many fundamentalists who are in the same boat with them.

Chette, over the years I've had many people say one of the hardest books in the Bible to understand and harmonize with Pauline Church Doctrine is the book of Matthew. The book of Matthew is one of the easiest books for a Christian to understand if they will just throw John R. Rice out and see Matthew is an OLD TESTAMENT BOOK. The New Testament does not begin till the END of Matthew:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

You want to understand the book of Matthew, then don't read Rice, Ruckman, Matthew Henry or Gill, read the Old Testament.

As brother Parrish said, let's greet each other with an holy kiss, sing a chorus of Kumbayah, fellowship in the brotherhood of the Spirit while you guys get out the staves, pitchforks, and torches. This is about one inch of the doctrinal iceberg of divers washings and Pauline dispensational truth, I ain't even shifted out of first gear yet.

Grace and peace my friends.

Tony

[chette777]

well Tbones,

that is quite a lot to chew on.

I am a moderate dispensationalists and when I took and looked at Matthew as transitional from law to grace and from OT times to NT times, it makes a whole lot more sense than trying to fit it in as just the dispensation of Law

I later the other day after posting found that John's father was of the priesthood. But John himself was not involved in the priesthood as he was committed to the Nazarite Vow and such was exempt from duties of a priest per se. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah of which nothing was spoken of concerning the priesthood. then that takes us into Hebrews of which Tandi already got everyone.

having said that what do you think the Apostles would of though Jesus Meant in Baptize them? of course they only knew of water Baptism (mat 28). If I am correct they did not consider the empowerment of Acts 2 to be a baptism.

Paul is the only one we know that presents a different Baptism other than water and he never commanded or taught anyone to water baptize.

I wouldn't think anyone will ban you for your belief on this issue. I do think Brother Tim should rethink why the forums of AV1611 have been established. they weren't done so anyone could "rip em up" on anyone's belief on Baptism. this is an area that I thank God is a non essential to our salvation.

As I said if anyone claims to follow the command of Matthew 28 they have a lot more than water baptism to follow. Most here will first say they can't go forth and heal the sick, cast out demons because they do not believe those gifts are for today. but there is no choice here, you do "ALL" that Jesus commanded or you are in disobedience.

My last note "in the name", Jesus said many would come "In my name" and would say and teach many blasphemous things. "In the name of" is an approved Authority from God to do such things, not the actual physical or spiritual baptizing or immersing of the father, son, and holy ghost's name. the Pharisee's could not crucify Christ without Pilate's Name on the permit. his name was the authority and I believe the commission of the Apostles was the same.

Here is the command that Jesus gave the Apostles in a private location he had chosen for them: Mt 28:19 Go (first to go) ye therefore, and teach (second to teach) all nations, baptizing them (third to baptize)in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (this is the Authority) they were to go in the name of God, they were to teach in the name of God and they were to baptize in the name of God. Of course Jesus expounded God to be the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost but it is still means the name of God.

Verse 20 is the clarification or addition of information concerning the command of verse 19 (if my understanding of what follows a colon is correct and it is - see "colon" in sword searcher's unabridged Webster's dictionary meaning) 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. here the will also run into a problem because many will not teach converts to go and heal the sick cast out demons or go into the mission field without raising money (by the way I did that and it makes for a trial of faith as God approves your ministry)/


blessings bro and thanks for the answers that all can appreciate.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Chette, what I am responding to you with will be repeated with our other brothers, I love and respect all of you and I think rather than "please read message number blah blah..." I'd like to answer each of you individually...

This is about one inch of the doctrinal iceberg of divers washings and Pauline dispensational truth, I ain't even shifted out of first gear yet.

Well please don't bother to answer me on it individually, brother. Let me nip that in the bud. You were asked about it, you stated your position clearly and we can all see where you are coming from. I understand you're still in "first gear," but you're already smoking and leaking fluid from the tranny. As I already stated, I am quite convinced you are wrong on this concept, (as does the majority here) and you can copy, paste and underscore the entire Old Testament if you want, but attempting to change my mind on the ordinance of believer's baptism will only lead to a stronger rebuke and it won't edify anyone here I promise—so I will choose to "opt out" for the sake of unity. I'm sure we will cover each other's backs on many other issues. As I wrote in my last post, I feel we have other battles to fight together as brothers in Christ.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

It is a good thing that you cut it well, Brother. It is not good to cut it badly.


Now, let's be at it....

I got to remember to put an edge on my knives after they are finished

Grace and peace to you brother.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I'm an Independent Baptist so I voted yes. I believe it is one of only two ordinances given to the body of Christ to practise until the Lord returns, the other being the Lord's Supper.

Believer's Baptism is a wonderful figure of the salvation that has already taken place in the believer's life, to me it is an important Christian ceremony which publicly testifies of the new creature in Christ.

While water baptism is not required for salvation, I believe it is an important ingredient for the believer's testimony to the body of Christ, and so I encourage all new professing believers to be baptised in water as soon as possible, as a sign of their willingness to obey the scripture and witness their salvation publicly.

Matt, you and I personally differ on water baptism and it's application, but I want to thank you for this profession that you take a stand and that you are basing it on Scripture, and a Scriptural profession that I may disagree with that is yet heartfelt, I have no disagreement with. I'm not out to destroy you, your church, or your denomination.

Grace and peace and much fruit to you, I'm trying to handle these replies in a chronological order so that no one who addresses me or this topic is missed.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

We interrupt this pending discussion with a call for time-out.

Sorry, Tony. I was going back over the posts to get my bearings and noticed some of your comments (#35 & #37) and one of Chette's (#39) had slipped by me. In one of them you briefly answered my initial question to you. I need a little time to review your posts before tearing them apart . I also saw that you had asked me two questions, which I will brilliantly answer later today.

Sure thing Tim, I'm trying to reply to you gentlemen in chronological order.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Fredoheaven]

Well Brothers in Christ, the poll says 2 out of 20 voted for NO which was equaled to a 10% or a "tithe". Tithe was being practiced in the Old Testament(OT). "Father" Abraham commenced it and it was commanded by Moses(Deut. 12:6) thus incorporated in into a law. Tithes is God's own and is rightful to be brought out to God. This tithe being practiced in the OT was commended by our Lord Jesus Himself (Lk.11:42; Mat.23:23) thus it is practically needful fo us today. The point is, the similitude could be right because the tithe like the result of the poll is 10% God's own. It may be right after all.
Now what about those who voted with an enormous 18/20 or 90%? For me, it could be likened to that of "offering" ie. Grace giving. Offerings in the bible was also practiced in the OT. Testament and in the New Testament, Paul referred to it as "Grace giving". Paul gave much emphasis of this kind of giving which is more than the tithe. It is to be noted that the 90% originally own by God. God placed that in our hands in oder for you to give. We have to remember, God owns every thing but we practically own anything. I for one voted for a Yes in the Poll because I believe it and that settles it. If it's good enough for Peter, Apolos, Ananias even Paul and above all our Lord Himself then its good enough for me. Matthew 28:19-20 was a command to be followed by the true church of Christ. "Go" is a command "ye" not only refer to his 11 apostles and other of Jewish people around him but to those who will eventually believed the Gospel and be added in the church as stated in Acts 2:41-47.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Grace and peace to everybody.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

P.S.
While I am chewing this stuff over in my mind, perhaps some dispensational-types could help Tony with his confusion . As a non-dispensationalist, I can already see that I interpret Scriptural events from such a different prospective, that discussing an action like baptism (when, where, why) may be completely impossible. If I view the Great Commission as applying to me, and Tony does not, then it makes everything else out of balance, including the mandate to baptize.

To those of you who also still practice baptism, and that do follow one of the dispensational plans: Where do you see the distinction between yourselves and Tony? Where does the timeline get redrawn to include or exclude baptism?

Tim, I differ with the majority of Grace Believers, as The Oracle said to Neo in THE MATRIX, this will cook your noodle, but I rightly divide Paul:

Early Paul(Times Past, to the Jew first...)
Mid Paul(But Now, there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, "Acts 29")
Late Paul(Ages To Come, Hebrew Of The Hebrews, his letter to The Hebrews, tribulation)

This is not a description or label of Early Acts, Mid-Acts, or Late Acts Dispensationalists, that is their determination of when the Body began. I am looking back from 2000 years ahed and see it beginning at Calvary and made manifest at the resurrection with just above 511 members, and added to on Pentecost, and then we Jewish-Gentile Mystery Body grafted into it.

Grace and peace

Tony

[CKG]

It's difficult for we who were raised in Baptist churches to question if baptism is for us today. If it weren't for Matthew 28:19-20 I would probably say it was a matter of liberty for today's believer. Still it's interesting that Paul doesn't make a strong statement for baptism like he does the Lord's supper. And are there only two ordinances? Wouldn't reading, preaching, and teaching God's word be considered an ordinance when the body comes together?

Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1 Timothy 4:13)

Is baptism the first step of obedience? It comes across like once you are saved you are in neutral in your spiritual growth until you get baptized. If baptism is the first step, what is the second step? How many steps are there? Some Baptists are in such a hurry to get a person into the baptism waters that you would almost think they were COC.

Some of you church historians might want to correct me, but I believe during the dark ages whenever a Catholic got saved and joined up with true believers they were baptized (immersed) which infuriated the Catholics. That's a good enough reason to practice it right there. If I remember correctly believers were persecuted for this (among other things). In some areas even to this day being baptized could be like signing your death warrant. Having said all of that here is a link (if it works) with a pretty good study on baptism by a Baptist pastor.

http://www.daytonabeachbaptist.com/s...onseries_id=36

[Brother Tim]

Sorry, Brother Tony, but that last post has me wondering what was in my pizza tonight.