[Biblestudent]

Ezekiel 28.
The world that "then was" had Eden, Lucifer ("king of Tyrus"), the Beast ("prince of Tyrus", who sat "in the seat of God" saying "I am God" cf. 2 Thes. 2), and angels. They had merchandise and kingdoms. The world that then was totally perished just as this present evil world will totally perish (2 Pet. 3). (The world of Noah's day did not totally perish. Eight human beings, sea creatures, plants, and life survived and continued.)
There was an Eden in the world that then was. There was an Eden in the world of Adam. There will be an Eden in the new earth.

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

The way one believes in the GAP FACT in Genesis 1 is the same way you believe angels were created before (and shouted for joy) when the earth was created in Genesis 1.

I have verses in context that show what I believe and have stated on this subject. However, there is no Biblical proof in context that teaches a Gap Theory.

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Ezekiel 28.
The world that "then was" had Eden, Lucifer ("king of Tyrus"), the Beast ("prince of Tyrus", who sat "in the seat of God" saying "I am God" cf. 2 Thes. 2), and angels. They had merchandise and kingdoms. The world that then was totally perished just as this present evil world will totally perish (2 Pet. 3). (The world of Noah's day did not totally perish. Eight human beings, sea creatures, plants, and life survived and continued.)
There was an Eden in the world that then was. There was an Eden in the world of Adam. There will be an Eden in the new earth.

The king of Tyrus was an evil king that Satan was working through in Ezekiel's time (or thereafter). First the passage addresses him, then the demonic force behind him. There is no statement in that whole passage that the whole world would perish (or did perish) - the reference is to the Devil's downfall.

God created a Garden and put Adam in it - there is no reference anywhere to a prior garden of Eden and there is no reference that there will be one later (except in the sense of the whole world being renewed).

It is never safe to base our theology on guesswork.

One of the best Bible passages to refute the gap theory is Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So if there was a pre-adamic race, they had to have died, and according to Romans 5:12, death came by the sin of Adam, not before.

[Biblestudent]

Sin did not begin with Adam. It began before him and before it "entered" into the world.

[Biblestudent]

Genesis 4:2 is an example of a gap fact. Was Abel born a keeper of sheep? Or was he born, then a time gap before he became a keeper of sheep?
Genesis 4:1 and 4:2 is another example of a gap fact. Do we need to have a text in order for us not to guess that there is a gap between the birth of Cain and the birth of Abel?

Genesis 1:1 is CREATION.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 is DESTRUCTION.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Nahum 2:10 She is empty, and void, and waste: and the heart melteth, and the knees smite together, and much pain is in all loins, and the faces of them all gather blackness.

The Bible never describes a "good creation" of God as "without form" and "void" and "darkness".
When God begins, he begins a "good work" not "void". He makes all things "beautiful" not "without form". God is light; in Him and His work is no "darkness" at all.

Quote Bible Student:Sin did not begin with Adam. It began before him and before it "entered" into the world.

You are right, it started with the devil (Isaiah 14). The verse I quoted said sin entered into the world by way of Adam. I was asserting that my understanding of the gap theory is that there was a pre-adamic race living on earth and somehow died off. So, maybe I was speaking to something that wasn't being discussed. So, excuse me.

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by jerry

The OT didn't look forward to the death of Christ? Genesis 3 tells a different story - so does Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, other passages.

This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible:

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.

This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible? Not so fast Jerry…the issue isn’t what is written in the OT, the issue is what did the OT saints understand and how were they made righteous before God. Even the prophets struggled with issues relating to the sufferings and glory of Christ:

1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

You completely misrepresented Chette777’s post and then ignored his argument, part based on the following passage:

1 Cor. 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Cor. 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

After ignoring Chett’s argument, you then listed Roman’s 4:1-25 followed by…

“Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.”

Jerry…not only did you take Paul’s argument of Romans 4 completely out of context, your deduction is one based on the NIV and not the KJV! In this post I’ll deal with what OT prophets and saints did not understand and next post I’ll deal with Paul’s argument in Romans 4 based on the KJV… not the NIV that supports yours.

To even suggest that OT saints both understood and looked to the cross for salvation is absurd. Case in point; consider the twelve who ministered with the Lord Jesus Christ for some 3 years before the crucifixion.

Luke 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Before moving on to the twelve’s response in v34, notice how deliberately the Lord makes reference to the prophets regarding events to occur concerning the Son of man that are the very components of what Paul refers to as the gospel he received and preached to the Corinthians; Christ’ death, burial and resurrection (1Co 15:1-4)!

Now, let’s look at their response in v34.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Jerry, here’s a 3 point outline you’d think would be the response of unbelievers!

I. And they understood none of these things
II. and this saying was hid from them
III. neither knew they the things which were spoken

Ignorance of these specifics is also evident in Peter’s rebuke of the Lord and the Lord's of Peter:

Matthew 16:21-23 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then to top it off Jerry, leaving no doubt behind, the disciples remained in unbelief even after the resurrection!

Mark 16:10-14 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. 12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Jerry…to believe that OT saints looked to the cross for salvation is simply unbelievable when considering the above scripture regarding 12 men who ministered with Christ such as they did!

Here is a fact that all non-dispensationalists and proponents of only one gospel don’t have an answer for, and that is… all the while these elements we call the gospel, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were hid, the twelve were still proclaiming a gospel (Lk 9:1-6)!

Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where. (We’ll save this for another thread )

Jerry…I’ll make a deal with you to immediately concede this debate if you will show just one case of an OT saint getting ‘saved’, justified or made righteous in accordance to Rom 10:9-10.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (need to change to ‘shall raise’) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Fair? I’m giving you 39 books of the bible to show just one example. Let me be very clear, I’m not asking you to show types of Christ or prophecy; these are a given. The prophets diligently searched the what and what manner of the sufferings and glory of Christ after prophesying them; the princes of this world didn’t get it right and crucified Him; events prophesied was hid from the apostles who didn’t get it till the very end and Paul relied on the scriptures as his defense of the sufferings and glory of Christ. Simply show where an OT saint was led down the Roman’s road for salvation. The way OT salvation is often portrayed today one would be led to believe that King David ran a SS chariot route toting the wordless book.

If you can’t come up with an instance…well then…hmmm…maybe you owe chette777 an apology

In Paul’s final comments at the end of Romans (Rom 16:25-26), he linked together three things; his gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world, and the support of such mystery by the scriptures of the prophets. Wonder what his gospel and this mystery could be?

Next post I’ll begin to defend Paul’s Roman’s 4 arguments proving the KJV over the NIV.

2 Timothy 2:15

There are various OT passages that refer to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Genesis 3:15; Psalm 22; 16; Isaiah 53.

I never debated how much the OT saint understood or didn't understand some of these things - you don't have to understand something fully to accept it by faith. The OT taught the Gospel - looked forward to Christ fulfilling it, and the OT saints were saved by looking towards that Messiah who would die in their place.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If you were building something, it is going to be without form until you give form to it - and it is going to be void until you people it and put other animal, etc. life on it. Therefore it makes perfect sense to have the original ball that God made into the earth without form and void until He gave it form and put life on it. It does not mean it had form and life, then lost that form and life, then had to be reformed and life added again.

[chette777]

Just for short

Gen vs1 is a small discription verse of what was in the beginning of eternity past.

Gen vs2 is what was at the beginning of the recreation. notice the plain English text "and he said unto them REPLENISH the earth in verse 28. that tells us something was going on in this earth long before the 6 days of recreation.

Now something was going on. and please don't think that Gods Highest Idea of man was Adam. God Highest Idea of man is redeemed sinners made into the image of Christ, men who have received the fullness of God wonderful grace.

Now something was going on in eternity Past and Gods Word for us (the KJV) does not go into to much detail. but it was taking place on this planet that was in a perfect heaven (singular which is how it will be after the Milliennial Kingdom), and that heaven had no darkness for God is the light of his abode. but when Lucifer tried to take Our Lords throne for himself (which is where that Throne was and always was meant to be from the perfect will of God in the eternity past where God the Father and God the Son before they created anything.

God decided to create all things, and a plan of redeeming men by the foreknowledge of God was forged and covenated between them god the Father and god the Son. but Lucifer brought to the earth the darkness and this darkeness was spreading throughout Gods perfect heaven. God judged Lucifer and the angels who followed him, and thereby halted the spread of Darkness until he created a firmament to contain the spread. and there creating the universe we are now expereincing (90 some billion light years accross).

then God recreated the earth in 6 days made man and began the final fulfillment of HIs wonderful and all wise will for His highest of creation. Millions of men (and women) made into the perfect image of the man Christ Jesus.