Originally Posted by Forrest

Okay. I'll ask you too. (I asked Brother Chette this question.)

Are individuals ever given eternal life in Heaven apart from believing and receiving Jesus Christ? regardless of the dispensation?

Yes to the first question; but I'm unclear as to what "regardless of the dispensation" means. In each dispensation, there is a certain plan of salvation that cannot be disregarded. I think Brother Chette was wise to refine your question somewhat:

Originally Posted by chette777

if they died before Jesus Christs first adavent, never given a chance to believe on or even hearing or knowing about Jesus Shed blood are they dammed to hell?

No, certainly not. The people in the situation you describe were not responsible for knowledge of Jesus Christ, because He hadn't shown up yet. They were responsible for the revelation God had given them. For a Jew, it would be the Old Testament law; for some aborigine in Australia, or some Sioux Indian in North America, it would be the revelation of nature (Psalm 19) and conscience (Romans 1).

The revelation of nature is very, very specific. People could (and still can) learn all kinds of things about God from nature, which would be an excellent topic for a separate post (or thread). Anyway, God has always revealed Himself in one way or another, and people have been able to honor (or not honor) that revelation.

When Jesus came, however, the situation changed entirely. Even up to the time of the crucifixion, Jews were under the Law; and the Gentiles all over the world were following the revelations of nature and conscience. But once Jesus came, and was resurrected, the Gospel of 1 Corinthians 15 went into effect: faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing!

The bottom line, however, is that, for most of human history before Christ, people were saved by a mixture of faith and works. And that's how it will be in the Tribulation. In the Millennium, with Jesus physically present, it'll be pure works: obey, or else. (I'm talking about survivors of the Tribulation, and people who are born during the Millennium. The Christians who returned with Christ from Heaven - - - us - - - will still be saved, because we've been saved since the day we trusted Christ.)

So, the obvious question is, what about people in our own day who have never heard of Christ?

I don't know. It certainly makes missions an important concern, doesn't it?

I suspect that such people (and, with worldwide communication, there are relatively few of them) are still under the nature/conscience thing, as in the days before Christ. But I can't give you Scripture for that.

The glaring exception is the contemporary Jew. Jews in our day, no matter how zealously they try to keep the Law, cannot be saved apart from faith in Christ.

Pardon the delay, brother; I stepped away from the computer for a couple of hours. And now I'm going to bed.

[chette777]

yes I agree.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

So, the obvious question is, what about people in our own day who have never heard of Christ?

I don't know. It certainly makes missions an important concern, doesn't it?

AMEN! You've brought us to the weightier matter. Thanks, brother.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Hmm, got a thought here...let me see if I can voice it:

How would someone get saved by looking forward to Jesus Christ, before there were any Scriptures prophesying His coming?

How would they have known to 'look forward to the cross'?

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

I'm asking. New Testament prophets only? Or Old Testament major and minor prophets too?

[Forrest]

Okay Brothers Chette, George, and "Vendetta Ride", Born Crucified, and Sisters Here Am I, and LindaR, thanks for your input. I will read over your posts (the scriptures) and allow the Holy Spirit to instruct me. Perhaps you've each been there before too. When you are in a particular "frame of reference" for years and something new comes along that disagrees with what you believe?

I'm willing to submit to the truth. As I've said in a previous post, however, if the Holy Spirit does not speak to me through the written word of God, I'll just move on.

We have a very dear, brother, (Dr. Jerry Benjamin) who is coming to our church in November. He is a converted Jew, who was actually studying to become a Rabbi before receiving Christ. He loves Jesus! He is also what I would consider a scholarly man. I plan on discussing this subject with him also.

Brother George, I have not read your post # 35 yet. I will though. You probably understand, I'm going through some "fatigue and weakness" with my Multiple Sclerosis right now and need some time of rest.

Much love and prayers brethren (and sistern).

Originally Posted by Forrest

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

I'm asking. New Testament prophets only? Or Old Testament major and minor prophets too?

Quite obvious the Old Testament prophets were who Peter was referring to. After all, Peter did quote the prophet Joel when the 120 were gathered in that upper room.

Originally Posted by Forrest

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

I'm asking. New Testament prophets only? Or Old Testament major and minor prophets too?

I believe it refers to the Old Testament prophets, up to and including John the Baptist, who was the last.

When I was at PBI, this question came up, and Ruckman challenged the class: "Go home and find a place in any of the prophets where it says, explicitly, that one must be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ." I'm paraphrasing, of course; it's been twenty years.

But none of us could find such a verse.

Mr Ruckman was using a technique similar to a magicians' sleight of hand or mental suggestion.

Sure, the name Jesus Christ is not found in the Old Testament. But Messiah is mentioned twice; salvation is mentioned 115 times; deliverer is mentioned 8 times; Saviour is mentioned 13 times... many other attributes of the Lord are mentioned throughout the Old Testament.

It was not just the prophets who looked for the Messiah, but patriarch's throughout the Old Testament revealed their faith that one day a Saviour would come.

Jesus said in John 5:39 Search the Scripture's for in them ye think ye have eternal life; but they are they that testify of me.

The prophets gave witness of Jesus Christ. Why question the Word of God?

Ruckman is nothing but a mental magician turning man's eyes from reality to what he wants them to see.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

Regarding the verse "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43), and my questions "New Testament prophets only? Or Old Testament major and minor prophets too?" you replied:

I believe it refers to the Old Testament prophets, up to and including John the Baptist, who was the last.

When I was at PBI, this question came up, and Ruckman challenged the class: "Go home and find a place in any of the prophets where it says, explicitly, that one must be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ." I'm paraphrasing, of course; it's been twenty years.

But none of us could find such a verse.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

I'm wondering what this verse really means, then. Is it believing in Him, plus something else for some individuals in history and individuals at some future time?

And what does this mean in Hebrews 11?

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Then there are these passages that create some questions,

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them” (Ezekiel 36:26–27).

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people” (Jeremiah 31:33).

“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin” (Hebrews 10:14–18).

What was King David's understanding when he wrote?

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Psalm 110:1).

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool" (Hebrews 10:12-13).

"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places," (Ephesians 1:20).

I'm still learning.

[chette777]

Forrest,

The Writer is not telling us that Moses was suffering for telling the people about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. rather he is saying that the same kind of reproaches had fell on christ Christ fell on Moses for doing right. Dr Peter Ruckman.

Not always are the rewards of doing right felt at the time we do them. sometime we suffer reproach for it. Moses just felt that reporaches was a good reward for doing right.