[Luke]

Brethren, it seems that on many AVbaptist forums, this thread shows up every six months or so, gets everyones hair in a knot and their heads all steamed up, and causes strife amongst the Brethren.

Let it be said that

EVOLUTION is wrong, but NO ONE HERE believes it.

There is no point arguing over the creation of the world, when BOTH GROUPS believe it was six days.

The only argument is over "was there something before this earth". And it doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of things.

Brethren, I urge you to abandon these arguments, for the sake of fellowship in this case. It started in a graceful manner, but has now moved past that, into subtle jabs and attacks on other people.

In Christ,
Luke

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by herami

Well, not quite.

God created by His word that went forth from His mouth!

We see the words "and God said..." over and over in the creation account.

Compare that fact with this -

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11


God said His word does not return VOID.

Look at Genesis 1:2 -

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

If God created the world by His word, and God's word doesn't return VOID, then something happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen. 1:2.

Note the elements present in this Genesis 1:2-
- earth without form and void.
- darkness

These are not elements of CREATION.
They are elements of DESTRUCTION.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we might find out what's going on in Genesis 1:2.

"Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled : suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment." Jer 4:20

Jeremiah is giving a prophecy of future DESTRUCTION.
Take a look at how he describes it -

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void ; and the heavens, and they had no light." Jer. 4:23

Jeremiah's description of the FUTURE fits Moses' description of the PAST in Gen. 1:2 perfectly.
-earth without form and void
- darkness

What is darkness an indication of in your Bible?
Remember 1 John 1:5?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Scripture seems to strongly indicate that something happened between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2.

Like I said, I am not fully convinced of the gap theory, but I dare not brush it away as nonsense either.


I will post more when I have more time.

Ok, this I must admit is very interesting. You've sparked my curiousity to say the least. I will be paying more attention to this thread...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I'd like to talk a little bit about the fall of Lucifer.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God : I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds ; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

Notice in this passage that LUCIFER (not satan yet) sins by PRIDE. He was ALREADY FALLEN when he tempted Eve.

Look carefully at Isaiah 14.
He wants to ASCEND to heaven.
That means he was BELOW heaven.

Notice he says "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God."
That means that his THRONE was BELOW the stars.

Look at what else he says - "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds."

He started his ascent from BENEATH the CLOUDS.
His THRONE was on EARTH!

His SIN was NOT BEING SATISFIED with HIS OWN throne on EARTH and wanting to exalt his throne ABOVE GOD'S.

This all happened BEFORE the temptation in the garden.

Did you ever notice what Satan says to Eve in the garden?

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:5

The temptation was to be as gods, not as God.

Very interesting.
There were gods around that Eve knew about and Satan refers to them to tempt her.

[chette777]

The Throne on Earth was not meant to be his own. it was to be prepared for God's Son.

His self centered pride he assumed God was allowing him to have this throne he was creating on the Earth in eternity past or prior to Gen1:2 for himself. while it has alwys been the purpose of God to make the Earth the place of his Son's Throne.

in the Bible verses concering Lucifer we find a hint that God makes things perfect. the Bible says Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. this gives us the understanding God created nothing imperfect or void or with abstance of light.

Check out the thread on Why isn't the Second day of creation said to be good?

Originally Posted by Luke

Brethren, it seems that on many AVbaptist forums, this thread shows up every six months or so, gets everyones hair in a knot and their heads all steamed up, and causes strife amongst the Brethren.

Let it be said that

EVOLUTION is wrong, but NO ONE HERE believes it.

There is no point arguing over the creation of the world, when BOTH GROUPS believe it was six days.

The only argument is over "was there something before this earth". And it doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of things.

Brethren, I urge you to abandon these arguments, for the sake of fellowship in this case. It started in a graceful manner, but has now moved past that, into subtle jabs and attacks on other people.

In Christ,
Luke

Thanks for the reminder, Luke.
I apologize for my jabs.

In Christ,

[atlas]

Steve,

I believe that when God re-created everything, that it was in done in 6 literal days.

How many re-creations have their been? I have only read about one creation in the Bible. have never seen any re-creation of one single thing in God's word.


Now if you would, please answer just one or two questions I have ask you.

1. I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation. Would you care to give us one?

2. Can you show me one place in creation where the name of Satan is even mentioned?

I'll be more than happy answer any of your questions, however I also think you must answer my questions.


Atlas

[atlas]

Herami,

To MAKE something is to form something out of already existing matter.

To CREATE something is to cause something into being out of nothing.

The words made and created have the same meaning in the creation.


We were made from matter that was already here on the earth, see Gen 1:1

Gen. 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

He already made the heaven and earth in Gen 1:1.


We were made from the earth. There dose not have to be a gap for man to be made of earth IE: Dirt. I see no gap needed for man to be made of dirt do you?

Gen. 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1: the fragmental material composing part of the surface of the globe

God also made and created all of the animals that move.

Gen. 1:21

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

So if it moves on this earth God created it.




Atlas

Hey Atlas,

You can call me Chip if you like. Herami is just my handle (as in "Here am I, send me" Isaiah 6:8)




To CREATE something is to cause something into being out of nothing.
"in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

To MAKE something is to form something out of already existing matter, such as an earth that is "without form and void."
...which God did in 6 LITERAL CONSECUTIVE days.

...as in "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth"

"Create" is ALWAYS an act of God alone and is ALWAYS from nothing.
"Make" can be done by God, man, animals, angels, devils, me, you, you name it, and is always from preexisting materials.


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
THIS is when He laid the foundation of the earth.
The sons of God were there to see God do it. They shouted for joy.
God gave them the earth to have dominion over, but Lucifer brought the whole kingdom to ruin when he attempted to ascend into heaven and exalt his throne above the stars of God (Isaiah 14:12-20 )
The earth lay waste and desolate. It was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

God CREATED.
God DESTROYED.
God MADE from the DESTRUCTION in 6 LITERAL CONSECUTIVE DAYS.

in 6 LITERAL CONSECUTIVE 24 HOUR DAYS, the Lord God MADE (NOT "CREATED") the heaven and the earth.

He MADE it (NOT "CREATED") from the existing material from the destruction in verse 2.

He did "create" a few things, such as whales and the soul part of man.
The rest was MADE (NOT "CREATED") from what was destroyed.

Hence, we find THIS ---

"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:3

Notice it says that God rested from the work He created AND made.

He did BOTH!
God Himself differentiates between the two in Genesis 2:3


God doesn’t use raw material to create anything!
God creates ex nihilo -Out of NOTHING!

God CREATED man by breathing into his nostrils the breath of life (his SOUL)
God MADE man by forming him out of the dust of the earth. (his BODY)

Man's body was MADE, nor CREATED.

God used dust to MAKE Adam.
God used Adams rib to MAKE Eve.

But God CREATED Adam’s soul from nothing.

[atlas]

Herami,

He did "create" a few things, such as whales and the soul part of man.

I must fully disagree. This statement is very misleading. It also dose not line up with Gen. 1:21.

Gen. 1:21

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,

As I stated before, God created everything that moved, not just a few things. Why leave out everything that moves, it's just as important as the whales isn't it?

Genesis 2:3

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So are you saying God created everything thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, hundreds of millions, billions of hundreds of billions of years ago, then wiped it out. Then he worked 6 more days then made it and rested, I do not think so.

It dose say all of his work.

So it looks like to me God only worked 6 days, that is one more day than 99% of the Baptist. I am lucky to be a 1%er as the hells angles would would say. The verse says God rested from all of his work, not part of his work. His was was creation.

Well he must have only worked for 6-24hour days. I'll admit, that was not a bad weeks work. The pay check was horrible. Look what he got for all of his hard work, HUMNAS. Man what a waste of time we were.


The words made and created have the same meaning, IE: Synonyms


http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/made/

Made is past tense of make as you well know. I typed in made and this is what I got. See link above it says made.

Synonyms (Grouped by Similarity of Meaning) of verb make,


Sense 16:
make

perform, execute, do


Sense 6:
produce, make, create


Sense 9:
create, make

make, create


Sense 7:
draw, make

create by mental act, create mentally

http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/create/

Synonyms (Grouped by Similarity of Meaning) of verb create


Sense 5:
create, make

make, create

Sense 6:
produce, make, create


Sense 1:
make, create


Sense 2:
create


Sense 3:
create

act, move


Sense 4:
create

appoint, charge

I do agree words do have meanings, yet sometime there words that are synonyms.

I do not think the created and made deal works to well for you my friend. Maybe you should try something else. Like show me the so called 1st creation in the Bible, so far I have only found one creation. If you can find that I'm game if not we both are wasting time, and time is money as the old saying goes. But hay what do we care our lives are just a hyphen right.

Here lies Joe Blow

Born: 1999 - Died: 2075

It's all just a hyphen brother.



Atlas

Atlas,
Although I agree with your final position and not with Chip, I feel your explanation for “made” is not correct. It is like those that say “by and though” are the same. God's is not using “made and create” for a symbolic point. Made ties into many passages that fit God's purpose, it is nearly silly to take your position on the usage as you defend it as a synonym.
Without wasting time with explaining something you need to further research, you can start with earthen vessel, he is the potter we are the clay, and this direction will certainly have some edifying revelations, to both of you.