[CKG]

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

I have often heard our relationship with God cannot be broken, but our fellowship can. Looking at the use of the word fellowship throughout the scriptures I think it has a stronger meaning than in the way we do. If people get together and eat or something like that call it fellowship. The word fellowship in scripture seems to denote more of a partnership. Its interesting that in the Webster-Merriam dictionary under obsolete it says "membership and partnership". I think John is using the word fellowship like we would relationship.

Here are a couple of the main reasons for John writing this epistle.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

People were being seduced with false teaching and some were thinking they were saved when they weren't. John is giving true believers assurance and exposing those who thought they were, but weren't.

1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Christians are not in darkness.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

True believers, those in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ walk in light (vs 5). Those who have been seduced walk in darkness (vs 6). We (true believers, those in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ who walk in the light) have been cleansed of our sins.(vs 7). Those walking in darkness need to admit they have sinned so they can receive forgiveness and cleansing (vs 8-10).

We believers (ones in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ who walk in light) can sin, but when we do

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins..:

For those walking in darkness,

1 John 2:2 ...and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Am I talking sinless perfection? No. John has admitted we, the true believers, can sin (1 John 2:1).

Doesn't this lead to license? No, not if you believe Romans 6 where Paul addresses this.

Romans 6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What has Paul said? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" Why? Because we are dead to and freed from sin!

Notice as you read through the rest of 1 John as he makes contrasts between light and darkness, truth and lies, children of God and children of the devil.

A saved person can sin, but if they do the Holy Spirit will bring conviction and when conviction comes I actually think it is good to confess, recognize and agree with God that you have sinned, but not to get forgiveness and cleansing. We are in Christ and nothing can separate us from God. Instead of seeking forgiveness and cleansing we should look in God's word and recognize, remember and thank Him for what He has done for and in us through His Son Jesus. This will not lead to license, but to growth.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Winman

Forrest

You make excellent points there, but I still believe there is a difference between being saved and being in fellowship. You cannot be in fellowship without being saved, but you can be saved and out of fellowship.

Read 1 Cor 8 and 9 again.

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, to me, this is a great verse proving that we cannot lose our salvation. It is a promise that Jesus will keep us. As Bro Parrish said, this is our position in Christ. We are washed of all sin, and have the imputed righteousness of Christ. So, in God's eyes we are blameless.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, I do see where a person could think this verse is a continuation of verse 8, and I believe it is also linked by the phrase "God is faithful". So again, it is an assurance that we will be kept and preserved by God unto the end. But I think the comma is important and it is making a new statement afterward. It is saying we are called unto the fellowship. So, this is a new subject, the scriptures are not talking about being preserved anymore, but now are talking about being called into fellowship.

Now look at the very next verse.

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now what is happening here? Obviously there are some arguments and confrontations going on in the church. There is no fellowship here. And Paul is begging them to stop and be agreed in the same mind and judgement.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

So, here is an issue of broken fellowship in the church. They were all arguing and debating among themselves. And Paul is reminding them they were called "unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ".

Careful. Verse 9 is not speaking of fellowship with other believers, but specifically with JESUS CHRIST.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

In the next verse he is specifically talking about fellowship with one another.

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by CKG

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

I have often heard our relationship with God cannot be broken, but our fellowship can. Looking at the use of the word fellowship throughout the scriptures I think it has a stronger meaning than in the way we do. If people get together and eat or something like that call it fellowship. The word fellowship in scripture seems to denote more of a partnership. Its interesting that in the Webster-Merriam dictionary under obsolete it says "membership and partnership". I think John is using the word fellowship like we would relationship.

Here are a couple of the main reasons for John writing this epistle.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

People were being seduced with false teaching and some were thinking they were saved when they weren't. John is giving true believers assurance and exposing those who thought they were, but weren't.

1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Christians are not in darkness.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

True believers, those in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ walk in light (vs 5). Those who have been seduced walk in darkness (vs 6). We (true believers, those in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ who walk in the light) have been cleansed of our sins.(vs 7). Those walking in darkness need to admit they have sinned so they can receive forgiveness and cleansing (vs 8-10).

We believers (ones in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ who walk in light) can sin, but when we do

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins..:

For those walking in darkness,

1 John 2:2 ...and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Am I talking sinless perfection? No. John has admitted we, the true believers, can sin (1 John 2:1).

Doesn't this lead to license? No, not if you believe Romans 6 where Paul addresses this.

Romans 6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What has Paul said? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" Why? Because we are dead to and freed from sin!

Notice as you read through the rest of 1 John as he makes contrasts between light and darkness, truth and lies, children of God and children of the devil.

A saved person can sin, but if they do the Holy Spirit will bring conviction and when conviction comes I actually think it is good to confess, recognize and agree with God that you have sinned, but not to get forgiveness and cleansing. We are in Christ and nothing can separate us from God. Instead of seeking forgiveness and cleansing we should look in God's word and recognize, remember and thank Him for what He has done for and in us through His Son Jesus. This will not lead to license, but to growth.

Originally Posted by CKG

True believers, those in fellowship the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ walk in light (vs 5).

That's not what verse 5 says brother. Here's the verse...

5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Verse 5 doesn't say ANYTHING about "true" believers who automatically or ALWAYS walk in light as Forrest is suggesting they do. It's not there.

You could say that believers ARE LIGHT, and you would be correct, per Ephesians 5:8, but even there we find that believers are URGED TO WALK AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT. Go look at that verse and you will see it.

Originally Posted by CKG

Those who have been seduced walk in darkness (vs 6).

I'm sorry brother, the word SEDUCED does not appear in verse 6,
it's not there, not even close. Here's the verse...

6 "If WE say that WE have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, WE lie, and do not the truth"

The word SEDUCED doesn't show up until 2:26, and this is merely a reference to the "many antichrists" who went out from "US" in verse 19, that is "WE" per above, that is the believers John has been addressing since chapter 1.

I'm not trying to argue, and I appreciate your thoughts, but I honestly think the reason people get mixed up in 1 John 1 is because they are reading things into the passages that simply are not there.

[Winman]

Careful. Verse 9 is not speaking of fellowship with other believers, but specifically with JESUS CHRIST.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Winman

Forrest
You make excellent points there, but I still believe there is a difference between being saved and being in fellowship. You cannot be in fellowship without being saved, but you can be saved and out of fellowship.

Exactly...

[swordsman]

No, Not confess. As far as God is concerned my spirit and flesh are separate. God does not see the sin or more accurately the wrong I do. It is only in my flesh.

Should I be mindful of it and strive to live as holy as possible? YES

Why? Because of what God has done for me, it is the least I could do.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by chette777

Winman,

We need to be very careful in making the churches of Rev 2-3 to churches today

Again we need to rightly divide Rev 3. While some believe they are church age churches other believe they are Jewish Tribulational Churches. The reason being of all the scriptures from Rev2-3 stating one to ENDURE, REPENT, and OVERCOMETH in order, eat of the tree of life (we have life in Christ), shall not be hurt by the second death (we are free from wrath which is the second death), receive the morning star (we have already received Christ), will not have ones name removed from the book of life (our names are already written in the book of life securely never to be removed), be clothed in white raiment(we are already clothed in His righteousness), be made a pillar in the temple of God (we are already the temple), be able to sit with Christ on his throne (we are already seated in the heavenlies with the Lord)

Can you see the theological problems you would run into if this is the church age churches. Remember the book of Revelation is Prophecy not past you see. These are futuristic churches in the tribulation. if you make them churches today you will nullify all that Christ has done and you could teach that you can loose your salvation and position in Christ.

Chette,

I have always held to the teaching of four levels of application of the letters to seven (age of grace) churches: 1) actual, historic 2) Applying to all churches throughout history (admonitory), 3) personal (each letter applies to each of us), and 4) prophetic of all church history with precision, and would not be so if in any other order. Interestingly, each of the letters can be related to one of Paul's epistles. It is intriguing that Paul also wrote letters to seven churches (assuming he wrote Hebrews which I believe he did) and there is a parallel to Jesus' letters. These factors tend to tie the letters to the gentile church age, in my view.

Remember the book of Revelation is Prophecy not past you see.

Christ commands John to: Revelation 1:19-20 Write the things [U]which thou hast seen[/U], and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The seven stars (angels of the churches) and seven candlesticks (churches) are the things which John hast seen. Of course, most of the age of grace gentile church age was still future in John's day but this seems to indicate the letters are before the tribulation starts.

On the other hand, the things you mention have always bothered me, like I was missing something.

ENDURE, REPENT, and OVERCOMETH in order, eat of the tree of life (we have life in Christ), shall not be hurt by the second death (we are free from wrath which is the second death), receive the morning star (we have already received Christ), will not have ones name removed from the book of life (our names are already written in the book of life securely never to be removed), be clothed in white raiment(we are already clothed in His righteousness), be made a pillar in the temple of God (we are already the temple), be able to sit with Christ on his throne (we are already seated in the heavenlies with the Lord)

Also, Jesus gave seven kingdom parables in Matthew 13. I don't remember if they relate to the letters, I would hazard a guess that they do.

Rev 2 & 3 certainly have multiple levels of meaning for the gentile church age (dispensation of grace) but do they have their final and most literal fulfillment in the tribulation church? I just think the meaning of the letters are so much deeper than we imagine. They are words spoken by our glorified Saviour. Jesus seems to be in the Holy of Holies in chap 1 in a Priestly role. "Priest" and "Intercessor" aren't used from Romans through Philemon. Perhaps the seven letters to seven churches fullest meaning and and most literal fulfillment (from our viewpoint today in the Laodicean church period) can't be understood by anyone but the tribulation saints.

Do you have any teaching material on your view that you could share? My stuff is just gleaned from Chuck Missler years ago. http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP012/

Jennifer

Edit: Sorry, I don't mean to hijack threads.

[Richard.Strickland]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Hmmm, well "relationship" is not really the best word brother.
I used to teach this in our Bible Doctrines class, there is a big difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP.

Our RELATIONSHIP with God is that of his adopted children, whereby we cry "Abba" or Father. We have been adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15) and this is wonderful news! This relationship cannot be shaken or changed, it is not based on works or any "maintenance" on our part. (Eph. 2:8-9) It is based on faith only and receiving Christ.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" I John 1:12

The reason this is important is because of the eternal security of the believer. Here is a weak but simple illustration...

When I was a kid, I used to get mud on my shoes a lot. My father used to tell me over and over to take off my shoes but I was always running in the house with muddy shoes on and making a mess. No matter how many times I tracked up my father's carpet as a child, my father never kicked me out or made me leave the family. Sometimes he became grieved about my total disregard for his instructions, and sometimes I got angry at him and his rules. I may have been chastized for that behavior, I may have lost my FELLOWSHIP, but I never lost my RELATIONSHIP. I was still in my father's family, and I stayed in his house. He loved me and remained my father and I remained his son.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:6-7

So I would agree with you that searching and confessing to God is important, and the reason is for our proper FELLOWSHIP with God. (I John 1:9)

Chette, I think your poll was very good, and I salute you for it.
I just want to make sure the readers understand what we are talking about.
God bless...

And that, Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Romans 13:11,12

I John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
I believe that I John 1:9 is a very important passage in the Bible that deals with "The Doctrine of Repentance"
Genuine Bible confession anything short of these 3 things is not Bible confession.
#1 Admitting the guilt
Confess means to agree with God. The biggest hurdle is to admit that I have sinned.
Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
confess

CONFESS', v.t.L., to own or acknowledge. 5. To own; to acknowledge; to declare to be true, or to admit or assent to in words; opposed to deny.

Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. 2. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us, 1Jo 1:10. The denial of our sin not only deceives ourselves, but reflects dishonour upon God. It challenges his veracity. He has abundantly testified of, and testified against, the sin of the world. And the Lord said in his heart (determined thus with himself), I will not again curse the ground (as he had then lately done) for man's sake; for (or, with the learned bishop Patrick, though) the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, Ge 8:21. But God has given his testimony to the continued sin and sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient effectual sacrifice for sin, that will be needed in all ages, and to the continued sinfulness of believers themselves by requiring them continually to confess their sins, and apply themselves by faith to the blood of that sacrifice. And therefore, if we say either that we have not sinned or do not yet sin, the word of God is not in us, neither in our minds, as to the acquaintance we should have with it, nor in our hearts, as to the practical influence it should have upon us.
II. The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, 1Jo 1:9.
#2Abandoning the sin
Isaiah 59:1,2
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
#3 Accepting the forgiveness
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
In closing:
Romans14:10,11,12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
For the Lord himself shall descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I Thessalonians 4:16,17

"But grow in gace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory for ever. A-men" II Peter 3:18
Richard.Strickland

[chette777]

So everyone has some feelings about this issue and that is good.

let us take it another step but first let's clarify: 1) all our sins ARE forgiven in Christ including the future ones, 2) our fellowship and relationship is secured in Christ by virtue of his finished work of the cross and his resurrection. 3) Our standing before God is secured in Christ but our daily status may change because of sin. I think on this we can all agree.

ok, now Paul say grieve not and quench not the Holy Ghost. Forrest is correct there is no admonishment to unquench or ungrieve. But if Paul said these things it is obvious that some have grieved and some have quenched the Holy Ghost.

So if anyone grieves or quenches the Holy Ghost what does that actually mean exactly? How does our quenching or grieving affect on our current status before God? And If we admit that we have done so how does that admission affect on our current status before God.

This thread has been most enlightening for me. I see both sides that which Forrest BroParish and Tbones have been saying and that which the others have been sharing as well.