[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Sorry guys I've been busy at work and trying to get caught up,
so just curious---now that we've all held hands and sang Kumbaya, did Bro. Tony ever answer this question above (?) because I thought it was an interesting question... I mean is that what the Grace Brethren hyperdispensational movement teaches these days?

Brother Parrish, this can be a bloody topic. Ever try and witness on the street with two Stamites, a Bride Baptist, and a Charsmatic/Holiness? To quote Powers Boothe in TOMBSTONE, "God have mercy!"

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I cut my finger real good tonight, I'm trying to cluster my messages, I left you much that may stop your watch.

You'll meet El Bandito, my evil alter ego, in FFF.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Diligent

You guys are free to discuss the questions posed. I have no problem with it at all. I just want it noted that Tony has been specifically asked to state (and by extension, advocate and defend) his position here. I will not tolerate anyone accusing him of tying to cause division. Just keep that in mind and have an edifying discussion.

Thank you Brandon. When the thread runs out, I am done. Deal, brother?

Grace and peace

Tony

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Thank you Brandon. When the thread runs out, I am done. Deal, brother?

Works for me.

[Brother Tim]

I cut my finger real good tonight,

It is a good thing that you cut it well, Brother. It is not good to cut it badly.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

Now, let's be at it....

[Brother Tim]

We interrupt this pending discussion with a call for time-out.

Sorry, Tony. I was going back over the posts to get my bearings and noticed some of your comments (#35 & #37) and one of Chette's (#39) had slipped by me. In one of them you briefly answered my initial question to you. I need a little time to review your posts before tearing them apart . I also saw that you had asked me two questions, which I will brilliantly answer later today.

[Brother Tim]

P.S.
While I am chewing this stuff over in my mind, perhaps some dispensational-types could help Tony with his confusion . As a non-dispensationalist, I can already see that I interpret Scriptural events from such a different prospective, that discussing an action like baptism (when, where, why) may be completely impossible. If I view the Great Commission as applying to me, and Tony does not, then it makes everything else out of balance, including the mandate to baptize.

To those of you who also still practice baptism, and that do follow one of the dispensational plans: Where do you see the distinction between yourselves and Tony? Where does the timeline get redrawn to include or exclude baptism?

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Water baptism as practiced by the average Baptist church is not a sin.

Well I guess this means we can't have you banned.
Seriously, I'm glad you feel that way.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Water baptism as practiced today is a misapplication of a Jewish ordinance, part of the Law of Moses. It is a dead work and is the first step in consecrating a Levite:

I see where you are coming from now...
so you think those who participate in believer's baptism are practicing the law of Moses. In other words every Baptist pastor out there doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to this important NT ordinance.

Well Tony, I love you in Christ brother, and I like your style too, but that is not good doctrine—in fact, it's a slap in the face to every believer and every pastor whoever followed the Lord's plan on the issue (unintentional I'm sure but it is what it is.) I don't intend to berate you on this because I love you too much, as long as you keep that leaven bottled up on this forum I guess it's your view and you are welcome to it my friend. I do appreciate the fact you were "called out" on this issue and that you were questioned about it and answered clearly like a man and not some lurker who can't ever seem to face the music.

You are a gifted Bible student, but the Grace Brethren are "all wet" on this issue (pardon the pun) and I think there is one important thing they are missing in their view; that is the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ. This separates the believer's baptism from any and all OT "washings," and it always will.

Certainly Paul knew this...

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Roman 6:4

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:12

The trembling, suicidal Phillipian jailer didn't ask what he could do to observe the law of Moses, or how to be consecrated as a Levite—that's not anywhere in Acts 16. He asked, "Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?" The context here is the Gospel and salvation.

Baptism was not part of the law to Paul and Silas, who preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Phillipian jailer and also I'm sure explained the importance of believer's baptism as a first step of obedience (in this case even in middle of the night), saying:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the SAME HOUR OF THE NIGHT, and washed their stripes; AND WAS BAPTIZED, HE AND ALL HIS, STRAIGHTWAY. Acts 16:31-33

Believer's Baptism is not a part of the law of Moses, and it's not a "sacrament" that imparts saving grace, but an ORDINANCE of the blood bought church of Jesus Christ. We are not saved by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ and His blood..."cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

Baptism is the outward symbol of what has already transpired in the heart of the one who has trusted the Lord Jesus Christ for full salvation. That Phillipian jailer KNEW IT, and he was OBEDIENT TO IT.

To anyone reading this;
Have you taken this first step in your walk with the Lord? Have you been obedient to the word of God concerning this matter of believer's baptism? In Acts 2:41 we read, "Then they that GLADLY received his word were baptized..."

Okay I'm putting my soapbox back under the couch.
Tony I hope your finger feels better today.
We have other battles to fight together as brothers in Christ.
God bless you as you seek His truth on this issue.

[George]

"I'm sure I'll be asked to elaborate on that and so I'll stop here for now and wait for Brother TIm's comments and ask him two questions?

1. Was John the Baptist the first Baptist?
2. Why was Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, baptized in water?"

Aloha brother Tony,

I'm going to "dip my oar in" if you don't mind.

1. Was John the Baptist the first Baptist?

John the Baptist was NOT the first "Baptist " - if you mean like all of the Baptists since the death burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. John the Baptist's "ministry" had no more "connection" to a modern Baptist preacher's "ministry" than Moses or any of the other Hebrew Prophets in the Old Testament do.

John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only:

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only - who went before the Lord "in the spirit and power of Elias".

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only - who was:

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

2. Why was Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, baptized in water?"

The Lord Jesus Christ was baptized in water to "fulfill all righteousness" [Matthew 3:15] and so that: "He should be made manifest to Israel". To which John the Baptist testified. [John 1: 29-34]

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John the Baptist was baptizing "the baptism of repentance" (the same "baptism" that Apollos preached years later- Acts 18:25) and that is why he objected to baptizing Jesus - because He (the Lord) was sinless and had no sins to "repent" of!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The main "purpose" for baptizing the Lord Jesus Christ in water was to reveal ("manifest") Him to the nation of Israel:

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

[Brother Tim]

Brother Tony, et al:

Bro. Parrish has put so well what I may have said, that I can add nothing more.

Bro. George answered the two questions with his usual overwhelming flood of Scripture references that I need not give more detail, only to summarize what would have been the gist of my response:

Question #1: "Was John the Baptist the first Baptist?"

As simply as can be said: He is the only one given that name in the Scriptures.

Question #2: "Why was Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, baptized in water?"

When John himself asked that question, we find Jesus' answer in Matthew 3:15: "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."

--------------

To all:
I have been working this issue over before the LORD since I first posted the poll and saw the initial responses. After reading Tony's replies, and the several brethren's replies noted above, I consider that the issue is more a question of dispensational divisions rather than the question of baptism itself. The definition/purpose of believer's baptism has been adequately explained above. There is evidently a wide gap in that definition and the one proposed by those who see it as an OT act only.

Because I view Israel and the church differently than many here, I do not consider myself appropriate to discuss whether or not the present dispensation includes the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel or not. I will step back briefly, though there are a few sideline questions that I want to ask a bit later.

Just one comment & question for now:
Tony, you speak of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 28 as addressing "the Law of Moses". The word "law" or "Law" does not exist in the command given by the LORD there. To whom exactly was Jesus giving the commission? The 11 apostles? The collection of disciples of that present time (120-500?)? All believers including us?

[Brother Tim]

I believe that John's ministry was unique. None before him were given the task, and any like Apollos who attempted it afterward were in error, as seen by the correction of Apollos.