[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

As the LORD move you sister, as the LORD moves you.
When you add yours, I will add my experience, then maybe together in the will of God we will encourage those on the forum that I know are struggling with ecumenism in their present church, and need the word of God to guide them in their decision.

Okay, I’ll try to keep it succinct:

We’ve been members of an independent Baptist King James church since 2001. I was active in choir, AWANAs (later Master Club), Reformers Unanimous (RU), Soul Winning, sender of birthday/anniversary cards for my Sunday School class, and even serving as ‘librarian’ for the choir materials. My dh was first drawn to audio/video ministry, then RU and Master Club. He felt led to teach Sunday School a couple of years ago, and within a few weeks after he told our pastor, a couple had to stop teaching due to health reasons. I assisted my husband with that ministry, to 4th graders. We were regular with our attendance, and willing to volunteer as needed. In 2004 we went on a Missions trip to Montana for a week. We were very happy with the worship, the fellowship, and the teaching.

About three years ago the music director resigned, reasons unknown aside from saying that the Lord wanted him elsewhere. We interviewed many music directors, but none were what the pastor thought we needed, or we were (as one candidate told us) expecting too much from one man. Finally, after about eighteen months of fill ins and interviews, the pastor said we had the man that God wanted to serve in the music ministry. He was (and is) a very friendly man, and took on the role of music director/orchestra leader and associate pastor with energy and ambition.

In August of 2007 the choir members were given the new music for the Christmas program, in a CD and a book. We were told to listen to it in preparation for our first rehearsal. I put the CD into my player, and listened to the entire musical, and sat there, unbelieving as to what I had just heard. I listened to it again, and felt extremely grieved. I even read the musical numbers in the book, and could not believe what I heard…it was not about Jesus, it was about Christmas, like any ‘Wonderful Life’ sort of secular production. I doubted myself, wondered what was wrong with me…and I went to the first rehearsal, determined to not let my feelings sway me into doing something wrong. We practiced the first number…”The Most Wonderful Time of the Year”, a song I despise since I was born again. I sat there, numb and upset. The lady next to me said “Why are we singing about ‘ghost stories’?” So, it wasn’t just me.

I went home, and I prayed, and prayed. I cried and begged the Lord to help me…and then, I felt as if there was His still small voice inside me, asking me “Does it honor and glorify Me?”, and I answered “No, it doesn’t, Lord.” I knew then that I had to quit choir, for the duration of the musical. I told the music director that I was taking a sabbatical from choir, to which he asked me to stop by and explain after church. I stopped by, but he’d already left, and he never asked me again why I had dropped out, so I never told him.

In the meanwhile, there had been an increase in ‘demands’ for money, constant ‘nagging’ for more money, more tithes, and both my dh and I were disturbed by it. Every week I faithfully tithed, and gave cheerfully above my tithe to missions, and love offerings, but now there was a constant “Give, give, give…” chorus from the pulpit. If we’d not been giving all along, I suppose we could have been upset because of a guilty conscience, but it wasn’t that at all. At one point, the pastor suggested we give our stimulus checks to the church, to help reduce its indebtedness. One deacon took over handling the paperwork to enable us to leave our money to the church when we died…this was new to us, and it upset and confused us.

There also was an increase in self-praise: “Isn’t the choir doing a great job? Isn’t pastor doing a wonderful job? Isn’t our preacher a great man of God? What a wonderful and great man of God so and so is" …etc, etc. There seemed to be a lot of glorifying men going on, but not glorifying Jesus Christ. The adoration of the Sword of the Lord people was especially pronounced.

Also, there was an increase in ‘praise and worship’ choruses being sung instead of hymns. We had the words to the hymns and the choruses printed in the bulletin instead of using our hymnals. On more than one occasion, I could tell that the words to the hymns had been changed in the bulletin, and I even looked them up in the hymnal to make sure. Why was it done? Plus, we kept singing “Majesty” all the time; once I learned that the composer of that beautiful song was promoting his ‘Kingdom Authority” heresy by it, I stopped singing it, I could not sing it.

The Sunday School classes over the last few years were being ‘standardized’ with each and every adult class (this was a big church, we had about six separate adult Sunday School classes) being required to follow along with the latest ‘book’ printed by some wonderful ‘man of God’. We had some great teachers, and it grieved me to see them shackled by having to follow some pabulum as required by the pastor and associate pastor.

Do you see a pattern yet?

I did not sing in the Christmas program, but as choir librarian, I was invited to the January ‘thank you’ dinner for all choir members and their spouses. At this dinner, I was horrified when the associate pastor/music director mentioned that we would be hiring professional musicians for the next Christmas program, even though we already had our own members' orchestra! Also, he spoke about making the choir members ‘uniform’ (robes??) and, this might be insignificant, but he kept misquoting Philippians 4:13. Four times within one speech to us he misquoted it! Four times! He said “I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me” and I wondered why he kept using a modern version of that verse.

As you can see, there were a lot of things that upset us, a lot of things that worried us too. My dh and I were praying, for the better part of a year, until we believed that the Lord would have us move on, to leave our church. I cried, I loved the people, I loved my pastor, and I didn’t want to leave. But…what do you do when you see apostasy, at least the first signs of it, in your church, and realize there is nothing you can do to stop it?

We eased out of our ministries, and started visiting other independent Baptist churches on Sunday and Wednesday evenings. When we finally found someone to take our Sunday School class, we left, entirely. That was in July, almost a year to when I first had serious misgivings about what was going on. I told only a couple of people face to face, and wrote short notes to a few close friends about us feeling the Lord wanted us elsewhere. I didn’t make any announcement as to why we were leaving, because I was so afraid of saying something that would cause division.

Word got back to the associate pastor/music director, and he emailed me, asking why we left. I was polite, and gracious, but I gave him the facts, basically what I have written above. I never heard back from him, or the pastor, to whom I mailed a hard copy of my email.

We’re now members of a small, independent, King James Bible believing church. The pastor preaches from the Bible, only. The choir sings hymns and plain gospel songs, nothing fancy or like a ‘praise chorus’. We are thankful that the Lord not only moved us away from our old church, but into this new one.

And in the old church, someone is spreading the rumor that we’ve joined a ‘Ruckman’ cult, and the associate pastor is telling people that we left, ‘bitter’. Hmm. Why?

I meant this to be short, but there was so much to share, to explain, so forgive the length.

[peopleoftheway]

We’re now members of a small, independent, King James Bible believing church. The pastor preaches from the Bible, only. The choir sings hymns and plain gospel songs, nothing fancy or like a ‘praise chorus’. We are thankful that the Lord not only moved us away from our old church, but into this new one.

And in the old church, someone is spreading the rumor that we’ve joined a ‘Ruckman’ cult, and the associate pastor is telling people that we left, ‘bitter’. Hmm. Why?

I meant this to be short, but there was so much to share, to explain, so forgive the length.

Length forgiven

That's a blessing for me to read that sister, As the music was a factor to my departure from my previous Church. I wont go into to much detail with mine, but It became just like listening to a group in a bar or a club, electric guitars, (solo's of all things) heavy drumbeats, and "Christian Rock", and praise of secular bands and artists.
I also had a real series of encounters with NIV, NWT and NASB readers, it just seemed that everyone else was reading from Alexandrian versions and I was reading from the Word Of God and I was the one who was taking the issue "to serious"even the pastor would not hold any bible in his hand and declare it as the inerrant Word Of God. Even the preaching was shortened and "drama" was introduced . The final straw for me leaving was a guest Pastor that Read 2 lines of scripture (albeit it was from an alexandrian version ) as the basis for his sermon, THEN he began to read FOUR PAGES of CS LEWIS! I honestly could not believe my ears, I prayed all the way through that the LORD would give him dry mouth or dry throat or something to stop him talking. After that I left, dusted off my shoes at the front of the Church and never looked back. I stumbled upon this Site for fellowship while I was looking for the church the LORD wished me to be in, and I have been blessed by fellowship here, and now after a lot of months praying and searching I have found a Bible Believing Baptist Church less than 3 miles from my home! Praise the LORD for his infinite mercy, his loving kindness and his Blessing through trials, which we never see until the day we are humbled by it.

God Bless

[Biblestudent]

Here Am I,
Sad to here that first part, but so encouraged by your testimony!
Thanks!
Biblestudent

[Here Am I]

Thank you for your encouragement, brethren.

POTW, we started having 'dramas' about three or so years ago, and sometimes during the service, instead of the service. It's only happened a few times, but I always felt funny about watching some drama group instead of listening to God's word being preached.

Could it be that we are uncomfortable with 'change', or the HS is letting us know that it is not pleasing to God, or both?

[peopleoftheway]

Could it be that we are uncomfortable with 'change', or the HS is letting us know that it is not pleasing to God, or both?

Sister it is both!
You see, when Churches change two things happen, either numbers will increase or numbers will decrease. If a Church changes from worldly entertainment and alexandrian versions and ecumenical circles, the change is for the better and numbers sadly in many cases would decrease, yet if a Church that holds onto the core fundamental doctrines and practices of the faith steers toward babylon, introducing rock music, drama, modern versions, book reading from the pulpit, no belief in an inerrant Word of God It is almost guaranteed that numbers will increase as people will go to be "entertained" rather than convicted by God's Word.
I love going to my new Church now to hear Gods Word, the KJB preached with conviction, shared by everyone, reading the same thing that is being preached from the pulpit, no division.

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I can assure you that the change we were both so uncomfortable with was by the conviction of The Holy Ghost.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Not
So then faith cometh by drama and music, and by reading books from heretic authors.

and lastly

Proverbs 24:21
My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

[LindaR]

Salvation is by grace through faith from Genesis through Revelation in all dispensations. The Old Testament saints understood a great deal about the Lord Jesus Christ.

And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (Luke 1:69-71)

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:20-21)

The Old Testament prophets understood much about the coming Messiah and His work. (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53).

The Tribulation saints are also saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:13-14)

Requirement for sacrifices in the OT times taught the Israelites two great truths:

1. death by the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 9:22)


For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11)

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22)

2. no perfect sacrifice had yet appeared. They were to be looking for Him whose heel would be bruised, and who would bruise the head of the serpent (Genesis 3:15).

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15)

The Lord Jesus Christ is the "Seed of the woman"

Paul quoted Genesis 15:6 ("And he believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness") in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6 to show that we are saved the same way as Abraham was before the law. He (Paul) also quoted Habakkuk 2:4 ("the just shall live by his faith") in Romans 1:17 and Psalm 32:1-2 ("Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, and whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity.") in Romans 4:6-8 to show the same about those during the dispensation of the Law.

Both Paul (Romans 10:13) and Peter (Acts 2:21) quoted Joel 2:32, ("And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:"), which describes the tribulation period, to show that we must be saved now even as they will be then!

Paul told Timothy that the Scriptures which he had known from childhood were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, and these Scriptures could only have been the Old Testament (2 Timothy 3:15).

Bruce Lackey, Can You Trust Your Bible?

The blood of the Lamb (the Lord Jesus Christ) is the ONLY basis by which a sinner can stand before a holy God....from Genesis through Revelation.

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Hebrews 4:2-3)

[chette777]

yes salvation is by grace through faith in every dispensation. but in all dispensation except the current church age their faith had to be accompanied by works of obedience. all persons except for Abraham who was a type of church age saint in type only mind you.

Noah found grace in God's eyes but if he hadn't had faith to build the boat they would haved died. so building was the work he had to do. No Jesus finished cross was seen here.

they Jews could have their sins forgiven by grace but they had to have faith to go to Jerusalem and perform the needed sacrifice for atonement. if they had not did the work their faith was not faith at all. No Jesus finished cross was seen here.

In the 7 years of Jacobs trouble they can endure until the end and do the works along with their faith in Jesus. here we have the cross of Christ but works have to accompany it.

the thing is these questions have already been answered in plenty of other threads and in a couple of your own threads. Salvation is a Major Doctrine of which you do good to understand it has never been exactly the same in every dispensation. yes grace and faith have always been part of Salvation in every dispensation but only in the church Age is it by Grace ALONE through faith.

[Here Am I]

Very good post, brother Chette.

[Luke]

I can't remember who it was that said something along the lines of

In every dispensation, salvation is by God's Grace, through faith. The object of faith in every dispensation is God, but the content of faith changes.

I thought that summed up the position pretty well. It might have been Ironside that said it, but maybe Newell.. not sure.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by chette777

they Jews could have their sins forgiven by grace but they had to have faith to go to Jerusalem and perform the needed sacrifice for atonement. if they had not did the work their faith was not faith at all. No Jesus finished cross was seen here.

My Pastor pointed something interesting out to me. During the 70 years in Babylon, and other captivities, the Bible makes no mention of the Israelites sacrificing. While most of Israel was probably disobedient to God, hence their captivity, there were some godly men and women who sacrificed to God with a broken spirit.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

While this is an exception, God no doubt covered their sins because of their faith in His mercy (not the cross, which they knew nothing about).