[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by jerry

He didn't say "when I am perfect", but "when that which is perfect is come."

You're sidestepping, Jerry.
But that's right! That's why "that which" is the same "that which" in I John 1:1. And it all falls into place!

No, I am not sidestepping at all. I am showing why I think a particular interpretation does not line up. Just because the phrase "that which" is used in both passages doesn't automatically mean they are referring to the same thing. That would be like saying these two passages both use "the" so they must be talking about the same thing. 1 John 1 does not mention anything being "perfect" - and in that passage John was referring to what they already knew and experienced personally about Jesus - so that would be "that which already came," not what is to come.

[George]

Aloha brother Sammy,

I believe that tongues shall cease at the end of the Great Tribulation (I believe that they will be needed in the Tribulation - that is why Paul said: "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues 1 Corinthians 14:39); and at the beginning of the Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ (There will be no need for them anymore-forever).

When we see Christ ("face to face"), tongues will cease for us. At the end of the Tribulation, when the Tribulation saints see Christ ("face to face") - tongues will cease for them. When Christ sets up His Millennial Reign and all the world shall behold Him ("face to face"), tongues will cease forever.

[Biblestudent]

Aloha Bro. George,
Do you mean to say that it is wrong for me to forbid anyone in my church to speak in tongues today?

[George]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Aloha Bro. George,
Do you mean to say that it is wrong for me to forbid anyone in my church to speak in tongues today?

Aloha brother Sammy,

Good Question! And one that I have never been able to fully answer to the satisfaction of the Questioner (and even myself) - but here goes:

Since tongues are for a "sign" and is one of the "sign gifts" and since the Jews are the people who "require" signs - I believe that it is proper, at this time (in the age of Grace), to forbid any "healer"; "tongue speaker"; "serpent handler"; "exhorcist"; etc, from "performing" in the church.

(I have never had this problem in a church, since I left a Pentacostal church back about 1965.) If tongues are going to be used in the Great Tribulation Paul couldn't proscribe them. In addition, if God was still dealing with the Jews as a people rather than individuals then God was still obligated to give them signs.

As an aside: At least some of the sign gifts are described in Mark 16:15-18.

To be perfectly honest - this is one of many questions that I don't have a real good answer for. And I was pretty sure that you were going to ask it!

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by George

Since tongues are for a "sign" and is one of the "sign gifts" and since the Jews are the people who "require" signs - I believe that it is proper, at this time (in the age of Grace), to forbid any "healer"; "tongue speaker"; "serpent handler"; "exhorcist"; etc, from "performing" in the church.

At least, we agree on that.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by George

I believe that tongues shall cease at the end of the Great Tribulation

I surely do not see tongues during the tribulation, nor do I see the Spirit present then, and you'd need them both for sure. The two witnesses in Rev.11 will have plenty of power, but tongues are never mentioned.

1 Corinthians 14 refers to tongues as something that can be learned - ie. a foreign language (you can't "learn" a gift if you were never given it). In the context of that chapter, we not only have rules for the use of the gift of tongues, but also for using regular foreign languages. Out of our prejudices, we are not to refuse a foreign missionary from speaking in his own (or another) language - provided there is an interpretor and the other requirements are also followed. One modern day (or at least in my lifetime) example of someone breaking these rules is the Catholic church having their services in Latin - with no interpretor. Paul indicates we need to understand what is spoken in order to be edified by it. Of course, someone else speaking in a non-human language would also be in violation of these rules.

Translated out of the original tongues...

[George]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

I surely do not see tongues during the tribulation, nor do I see the Spirit present then, and you'd need them both for sure. The two witnesses in Rev.11 will have plenty of power, but tongues are never mentioned.

Aloha brother,

I do not "teach" that tongues are going to be in the Great Tribulation, since I cannot go to the scriptures and prove it with absolute confidence.

My reasoning for "believing" that they are in the Tribulation is because:

1. Signs, miracles, and wonders are going to resume in the Tribulation.
2. The Jews require a sign.
3. Tongues are for a sign.
4. The 144,000 (at least) are going to go throughout the world preaching the "gospel of the kingdom" [Mathew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 24:14; Mark 1:14] not the gospel of the Grace of God.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Notice: This "gospel" of the kingdom is "confirmed by "signs" - not "faith" in the words of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (No "signs")

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I would NEVER insist that another brother in Christ would accept my belief on this issue, and neither would I ever "break" fellowship with him over it.

There are issues in the Book which are paramount (a bunch of them), and then there are these kinds of issues which are interesting, but not necessary for fellowship

Your brother in Christ,

George

Are there clear passages that actually teach there will be any signs and wonders done by God (and called as such) during the Tribulation period? I can find various references about false signs and wonders done by Satan, false prophets, the Antichrist just prior to Christ's return, but cannot think of any references to them done by God - now, I am referring to passages where those specific terms are used, not where by our reasoning we assume something.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (Yes, signs from God - but not signs and wonders done by God through people.)

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (Same thing - and these are not done on earth.)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:11-14 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.