[biblereader]

Well, the preacher was right. But, I will keep on slipping a little tract in the things I give away. It couldn't hurt. At least they will know a Christian cared enough to give. We all need Jesus, amen.
And, I think, Winman, you and I are on the same track. So much to do, and so little time.
After we are saved, we have SUCH a lot of things to change, to make less of ourselves, and be more Christlike. And, now, it seems, with America changing so rapidly, we have precious little time to gird up the loins of our mind, and also to tell others about Jesus. The darkness is coming. We will be the only light left.

Originally Posted by Winman

Biblereader

I think that if a Christian sees someone in need that they should help them. But I think giving someone the gospel is more important.

You can form a soup-line and feed the poor every day. But in the end they will die. You can give the needy clothes, or visit them in the hospital or prison, but if they do not know about Jesus they will die and go to hell.

I am not saying we should not do good and helpful things for those in need. But what every person truly needs is Jesus.

I heard a preacher once say:

Receiving Jesus as your saviour will not solve all your problems, but it will solve your BIGGEST problem.

[George]

Aloha brother Winman,

I ask you to carefully consider what I have to say, because it is not meant to offend you in any way.

There are Three (3) “divisions” (“parts”) to every Scripture in the Bible:

• There is a HISTORICAL aspect (context)

• There is a “SPIRITUAL” aspect (context)

• And there is a “DOCTRINAL” aspect (context)

When a Christian studies the word of God to shew himself “approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed”, he MUST always engage in “rightly dividing the word of truth”.
[2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]

I believe that a FAILURE to “rightly divide” God’s Holy words is at the heart of almost all of the “differences” (disputes) we see between Christian brethren here on the Forum.

According to the Scriptures the Lord Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

HOW can anyone mistake the implications of this simple statement? This verse of Scripture unambiguously states that - (during Christ’s “earthly ministry”) the Lord Jesus Christ was “NOT SENT” (to any one else), BUT unto the “LOST SHEEP” of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. If you can “get a hold” of this truth, it will be a tremendous “help” in “rightly dividing the word of truth”.

WHY? Because it clarifies to WHOM the Lord Jesus Christ’s ministry (here on earth BEFORE His death, burial, and resurrection) was DIRECTED – i.e. “the house of Israel” and to WHOM it was NOT DIRECTED, i.e. the “Gentiles” or the “church”. And correspondingly to WHOM He was addressing His “words” DIRECTLY – i.e. “the house of Israel” and to WHOM He was NOT addressing His “words” DIRECTLY, i.e. the “Gentiles” or the “church”.

WHY else would He have commanded His disciples NOT to go in the way of the Gentiles?

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Could it be any plainer? Could God have made it any more SIMPLE?

When the Lord Jesus Christ said in Luke:

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

He was talking about: “the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

He wasn’t talking about the “LOST”, as we see and understand “the Lost” today – NOT YET. He wasn’t talking about the Gentiles or the church – NOT YET! {He hadn’t died – yet; He hadn’t been buried – yet; He hadn’t risen from the dead – yet; the nation of Israel had not REJECTED Him for the last time [Acts 7:1-60] - yet}

In talking about “My sheep” the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Sheepfold Sheep"fold`\, n.

A fold or pen for sheep; a place where sheep are collected or confined.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

The Lord talked about “MY SHEEP” (His people Israel) in the Scriptures, and He said that he had “OTHER SHEEP” – “which are not of this fold” (Please notice that He did not say ‘which are not of this flock'). The Lord Jesus Christ has only ONE FLOCK OF SHEEP – but they come from TWO DIFFERENT “FOLDS” – i.e. Jews and Gentiles. While the Lord was here on earth He had ONE FLOCK OF SHEEP that came from only ONE FOLD (i.e. the Nation of Israel), and that consisted of ONLY JEWS; it wasn’t until AFTER the Nation of Israel’s REJECTION of the Apostles’ (Peter foremost) “message” to Israel - that the Lord turned to the Gentiles (His “other sheep” . . . . “which are not of this fold”) so that when “the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” there will be “ONE FOLD” (made up of both Jews& Gentiles) and there will be ONLY ONE SHEPHERD.

Brother, your comments on AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine > “works after salvation”> Post #35 > about Matthew 25:34-46 ignore the Historical and Doctrinal context of the verses. You have “spiritualized” the verses to make them “mean” whatever you want them to “mean”, rather than let them say exactly what they say.

In both the historical and doctrinal context the whole of Matthew Chapter 25 is in reference to “the kingdom of heaven” [Matthew 25:1-13; Matthew 25:14-30] and the Lord’s return to this earth to rule and reign in His Millennial Kingdom {His “physical” return to “physically” reign over the whole earth in a “physical” kingdom.}.

The Lord used two “Parables” to illustrate what it would be like just before He returns and what is to be expected of His “people” at His return.

Now the Lord spoke in “Parables” so that:

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.“

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

So the two “Parables” that Christ spoke of were “mysteries” that are only revealed to whomsoever God chooses to reveal them to, everyone else cannot understand them, although the words are there for them to see and hear.

Now what follows the two Parables is a PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION of WHAT is going to occur after the end of the Great Tribulation and BEFORE the beginning of the Lord Jesus Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. For want of a better name this is called the “Judgment of the Nations” to distinguish it from the “Judgment Seat of Christ” – where the Lord will judge a Christian's (all Christians') “works” [Romans 14:19 & 2 Corinthians 5:10]; and “The Great White Judgment” – where the Lord Jesus Christ will judge all of the dead (with the exception of His saints, who were already judged at Calvary) [Revelation 20:11-15].

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
{This is speaking about the “physical” return of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth to rule and to reign – sitting upon “the throne of his glory”.}

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, AS a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
{This is speaking about Christ “physically” GATHERING ALL OF THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD FOR JUDGMENT – and that judgment will be based on HOW those NATIONS treated the JEWS DURING THE TRIBULATION. It is NOT speaking about how a Christian feeds the poor, cares for the widows, or performs other “good works”. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christians!}

{This is NOT speaking about Christ’s “SHEEP” [John 10: 11-16]! Do you see the word “AS”? The Lord is using a “simile” to explain what is going to take place (the judgment of the NATIONS) immediately after He returns to the earth, at the beginning of His Millennial reign. On the one hand (the right), The Lord Jesus Christ is explaining that those NATIONS (the sheep) who treated the Jews kindly and helped and supported them, will get to live and go into His Kingdom. While on the other hand (the left) those NATIONS (the goats) who neglected or refused to help or assist the Jews, or those NATIONS who actively opposed them are going to be sent into “everlasting fire & punishment”.}

{Read the verses (in CONTEXT) – these verses are NOT talking about the “atonement”, or New Testament salvation, or Christ’s “SHEEP”. These are in reference to THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS, which will take place immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation. This is NOT THE “Judgment Seat of Christ” (for Christians), and NEITHER is it the “Great White Throne” Judgment (for the “dead”); this is “The Judgment of the Nations”! This is “rightly dividing the word of truth” -101. Please read to the end of the Chapter. Do you see anything connected to the church, Christians, or New Testament salvation?}

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. {Jews during the Tribulation}
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. {Jews during the Tribulation}

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These verses are describing “physical” events that have been prophesied to occur in the future. This is a prophesy spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ, and we ought not to “spiritualize” them and make them mean something other than what they plainly say.

The verses have NOTHING to do with Christians or with the Lord Jesus Christ’s “SHEEP”. They have everything to do with the “JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS” which will occur just before the Millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures are clear:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {His “own” = the Nation of Israel}

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {the “many” & “them” = both Individual Jews & Gentiles}

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {All those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and in His shed blood and His sacrifice on Calvary for their sins, and who have RECEIVED Him as their personal Saviour.}

[Winman]

Bro George

I am not offended. And I knew Jesus was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 15:24)

I knew this. But what do the scriptures following Matt 15:24 say?

Matt 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Now, I believe in rightly dividing the word, because the Bible says we should study to be approved unto God, rightly dividing the word.

And I respect you very much as a teacher and have learned much from you. And I am not trying to offend you. But in this case you stopped short.

And this is the problem I see with "rightly dividing the word". Some seem to see the scriptures as fixed. They can only understand the scriptures as they personally see the scriptures divided. But myself, I do not always see the scriptures divided the way others do. And the verses I just showed (Matt 15:27-28) are a good example.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by Winman

And this is the problem I see with "rightly dividing the word". Some seem to see the scriptures as fixed. They can only understand the scriptures as they personally see the scriptures divided.

you are the very words you speak. you see them as fixed to one Gospel and that all people are saved the same way. that is a fixed view.

[Winman]

You are right Chette

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Yep, I see one gospel. You notice how Paul repeats this twice? That is because Paul meant serious business here.

[George]

Originally Posted by biblereader

I think it's kind of cute, myself.
It's an affectionate, brotherly/sisterly type of term.

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not : convenient but rather giving of thanks.

You can make it "mean" anything you want (typical) - but it was discourteous and impolite (you don't know me nearly that well), and if I have anything to do with it, you never will.

You stated in AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine > "works after salvation" > Thread #1:

"biblereader's quote":

"So, you are either damned forever, or you have eternal life, based on how you behaved towards the hungry, the thirsty, prisoners, those who need clothing, and shelter."

That "comment" was NOT in the form of a question - it was a DECLARATIVE statement claiming that a person's "eternal life" is "based on" HOW THEY BEHAVE - i.e. "WORKS"! My reply (Post #5) to your post (Thread #1) was both respectful and courteous (although your statement was so outrageous, that it deserved a firm reproof), and the fact that you didn't understand what I said and disagreed with the rest of of my Post didn't justify your insolent remarks.

I grow tired of feminist Christian women who operate on their "FEELINGS" and IGNORE the Scriptures wherever they cross their "FEELINGS", and who take it upon themselves to instruct men in the ways of the Lord (8.5 Posts per day) - especially when your Posts reveal an appalling lack of spiritual discernment and understanding, and especially since you have been here for less than two weeks.

As far as you Post #25 is concerned:

It wasn't "CUTE" - it was BRASH! It's wasn't "FUNNY" - It was BRAZEN! It wasn't "AFFECTIONATE" - It was "DEMEANING"!

I'm not used to being treated this way by a woman - any woman; and I don't intend to get "used to it" now, not at my age. Maybe next time you'll try to emulate some of the other women on the Forum like sister Jassy, or sister greenbear who both are also newcomers to the Forum, but have been extremely courteous, polite and respectful - instead of rude and insulting.

[George]

Originally Posted by Winman

Bro George

I am not offended. And I knew Jesus was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 15:24)

I knew this. But what do the scriptures following Matt 15:24 say?

Matt 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Now, I believe in rightly dividing the word, because the Bible says we should study to be approved unto God, rightly dividing the word.

And I respect you very much as a teacher and have learned much from you. And I am not trying to offend you. But in this case you stopped short.

And this is the problem I see with "rightly dividing the word". Some seem to see the scriptures as fixed. They can only understand the scriptures as they personally see the scriptures divided. But myself, I do not always see the scriptures divided the way others do. And the verses I just showed (Matt 15:27-28) are a good example.

Aloha brother Winman,

I wasn't avoiding the verses brother, my only excuse is that my Posts are too long already. But what does the verses that you cite prove?

In Matthew 8: 5-12 & Luke 7:2-10 the Lord also deals with a Roman Centurion - that doesn't NEGATE the fact that His ministry was exclusively to the nation of Israel. He made two "exceptions" because of the extraordinary "faith" of those two Gentiles. {the Lord actually "marveled" at their "faith"}

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:
5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

I can assure you brother that I did not purposely "avoid" posting those verses. Those verses you cited and the ones I have posted here do not "disprove" that: the Lord Jesus Christ's ministry was "unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.".

I am not making any claims that the Lord did not state to begin with - Christ said (not me):

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He was NOT "sent" to the two Gentiles - they "sought" Him out. And at first he refused to have anything to do with the Syro-Phonecian woman, but upon seeing her "faith" - He granted her request.

These two acts of mercy did not alter His "mission" or His "ministry" one iota. The fact is - He clearly came to earth as the Jews' Messiah and King, and while here on earth He conducted Himself as such. He did not seek out Gentile believers at all - His ministry was exclusively to His earthly people (the Jews), and in the end they REJECTED Him!

To me, it is inconceivable to imagine how "twisted" and "perverse" the hearts of the leaders of the nation of Israel were, except for the fact that when I look around at our present world political system, I realize that nothing has changed!

And I'm not convinced that we Christians are any better than the Jews in Christ's day.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Winman]

Bro George

I do not see this strict dividing you see. Yes, Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel, but you see this exception. And there is another exception in Matthew 8.

Matt 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

So, here again we see Jesus ministering to a Gentile. Now it does not say that this centurion was a Gentile, but a centurion was an officer in the Roman army. But in verse 10 Jesus seems to clearly point out that this man was not a Jew. In fact, he pointed out that this man had greater faith than any in Israel. So, to me I think it is clear he was not a Jew. And vs. 11 seems to further verify that this man was not a Jew.

So, I do not see this division you see. Jesus did indeed minister to Gentiles at this time. Maybe it was not often, but it happened at least twice.

[chette777]

Winman,

the gospel that Peter taught is not the same Gospel that Paul taught. at least not before Acts 9.

there is more than one Gospel.

1 The gospel of the Kingdom
2. The Gospel of Grace
3the Everlasting Gospel.

But you apply to Old and New Testaments only one, the Gospel of Grace. you believe that all men in every dispensation are saved through this same Gospel of grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ in the cross.

you believe that all Baptisms are the same but there are many.

1. John's Baptism- Baptism for the remission of sins
2. the Baptism of Identification with Christ Practiced today (which is not the baptism of Acts 2 or 3 or 8.) that we use Roms 6 but Roms 6 is actually Spiritual Baptism not water baptism.
3. Spiritual Baptism found in 1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
4. Baptism for the dead.
5. Baptism of Moses 1Cor 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

But clearly there are more than one Gospel and more than one baptism. How can you deny these facts and claim there is only one Gospel in the New Testament. don't get me wrong I believe there is only one for today the gospel of Grace. but before Acts 9 it was the Kingdom Gospel and in the tribulation will be the Kingdom but towards the end the Everlasting Gospel.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by Winman

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Again you missed the English future tense "SHALL COME" at the moment Matt was written Jesus was only for the Israel. he said and where do they sit in the Millennial kingdom. This is not a reference to the Body of Christ.

How can you miss the obvious future tense and make it at the moment when that is not what he is saying. you are changing the meaning to a private interpretation. Also, the Centurion is either a Jew or a convert to Judaism. the scriptures do not say he was a Gentile only that he had not seen such faith in Israel. the counter verse is in Luke and there too it does not say he was a gentile. now I could be wrong but again Jesus main purpose was to the house of Israel this does not mean he did not minister to Gentile there were probably many Gentiles who were ministered by him.