[Brother Tim]

Tony, two statements:
1:

Brother Tim has had the wool pulled over his eyes by a very clever spiritual con-man.

When you have been around Barry, and talked with him as many times as I have, on and off the record, then you will have the right to judge him and me.

2:

When a prophet is taken to heaven by a chariot of fire I believe that's just what it was.

No prophet was carried into heaven by a fiery chariot. Read the Scriptures exactly, and don't depend on memory or old Negro spirituals.

[Winman]

Bro Tim

I don't know you very well, but I have been to the FFF a few times and read posts, especially in the Bible Versions forum. I have seen that you and FSSL kinda go around a bit with each other. I have seen you defend those he seems to relish ridiculing here. So, I don't understand why you wanted me to go to his forum. What's the use? Maybe I am a little older and experienced than you, but it is pretty obvious to me that no matter how much scripture or evidence you provide FSSL, he is not going to listen. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable, and at the same time fantastically immature and childish. You think I am going to debate with a fellow like that? I would rather argue with a group of foolish 12 year old boys on the street. He actually comes across as that immature to me. What I don't understand is why you tolerate him. I have seen him ridicule you many times. It's like some wierd abusive relationship. I wouldn't put up with it whatsoever.

I am not trying to be cruel to the guy, I truly hope he is saved, I want all people to be saved. But I am not going to frustrate myself arguing with someone so full of themselves. He is arrogant and rude, and believes himself to be smarter than anyone he talks to.

And what is the deal with "free" Sunday School Lessons? What? are we supposed to charge people for the Word of God?

I dunno, I don't get it with you and him. As I said, I wouldn't put up with it for a moment. And in no way am I going to stroke his huge ego by going to his personal site and putting up with his abusive behaviour. No way. I don't know the guy, but it is killing him for me (or anyone else) not to take him on.

[Brother Tim]

Winman, several responses:

...Maybe I am a little older and experienced than you...

I have been saved for 51+ years and have been in the text battle since the early 70's. I don't know how much more time I need to be experienced.

...I don't understand why you wanted me to go to his forum. What's the use?...

You had previously said that you tried to get on to post at FFF. I assumed that you were intending to respond to Barry. I was offering an alternate method of communicating with him. That is the simple reason for my recommendation. If you weren't trying to answer him, why try to post? I only meant to help you. I fully agree that he is not one for most to take on.

Why have I spent so much time with him?

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Winman]

Bro Tim

Thanks for responding. I also learned something, you are much older than I thought. It's funny the conceptions we have of fellow posters. For some reason (I don't know why), I thought you were maybe in your 30s at most.

But I still don't see why you go round and round with this guy. Yes, it is wonderful to be longsuffering and patient. But I have seen him ridicule you mercilessly. He seems to enjoy it, he really does. Why would you give him the satisfaction? I believe in tough love. If you show a willingness to learn and listen, I will be very patient. But if you are going to mock me and ridicule me, I have much better things to do than spend my time with someone who acts like an immature teenager.

Hey, it's your call, but I wouldn't give the guy the time of day after the treatment you have received.

I was going to end there, but I will tell you a true story. I had a fellow I worked with who used to love to talk politics. He was a stout Democrat, and he knew I was Republican. He would come up daily and ask different questions about my personal political beliefs. He would act as though he were completely sincere. But before I could answer him on a question, he would interrupt and mock and ridicule me. This went on for quite some time. Finally, I had enough. I completely avoided him for over a month. One day he came up and asked why I didn't talk to him anymore. I told him I was tired of his abusive behaviour and I didn't care if I ever spoke to him again. And I meant this when I said it. You know, he actually hung his head and apologized to me. I told him that wasn't enough. I would talk to him, but if he acted like that again I would never speak to him again. From that day forward he treated me with respect, and did not interrupt or ridicule my positions.

You are just stroking this guy's ego by putting up with his abuse. Why should he stop? You are putting up with it.

Do what you want, but I don't put up with foolish people like this.

[Brother Tim]

Winman, I have in fact cut off public dialog with Barry. I no longer post to FFF, though I will at some point in the future post one final time. I had been a member of his forum since its early days. I no longer post there. I have sent and may continue to send Barry private or semi-private reprimands, but no open two-way discussions.

As far as why I have put up with his abuses, he hasn't reached the 70 times 70 limit yet. His responses are far milder than rancid (my nickname for "ransom" on FFF), japheth, or roby. I am thankful that the LORD does not quit on us as fast as we quit on others.

[Winman]

Well, just remember, the Lord said if they REPENT 70 times we are to forgive them. I haven't really gone to the FFF but a few times and read a few threads, but I saw quite a bit of abuse toward you, and never saw one tiny bit of remorse or repentance even once. Just because they are willing to respond to you and abuse you again, I do not call that repentance.

And I have seen responses by the others you mentioned as well. They are just as immature as FSSL.

[Brother Tim]

Well, just remember, the Lord said if they REPENT 70 times we are to forgive them.

In my Bible, it says this:

Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

I don't see the word "repent" anywhere! Check your version, glasses, or memory. One of them is in error.

[Winman]

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

You are under no obligation to forgive someone who does not repent. Even the Lord Jesus will not forgive us unless we repent and turn to him for forgiveness.

But also, we are first to speak up and rebuke the person.

[Brother Tim]

Winman, you gave a good verse as a response. I was referencing the "70" verse of Matthew in my statement. [You switched to another reference that technically doesn't mention "70". ] It is not a requirement therefore for the offending BROTHER (though some question Barry's qualification here) to repent. He did actually apologize...once . I will not wait for him or any of the others to apologize to me before I forgive them. I do not need that weight hanging on me. Remember that Jesus called for forgiveness for those who crucified Him without their repentance. Stephen did the same. I will do no less.

[Diligent]

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Notice how close these verses are to each other? This is not always easy. Personally, I am done with Barry, as he abused my services and deceived me in order to perpetuate corrupting the word of God and ridiculing people who hold to God's word. I can forgive him, but I can't pretend it didn't teach me what I need to know about him.


I think we have a lot of room to decide when to answer fools, and it may be that God wants to use someone to answer Barry -- I just know it ain't me!


So I won't judge Bro. Tim for having the patience to dig the grand canyon with a spork, which is what it would take to suffer Barry as he does. Likewise, I won't judge Winman for moving on and shaking the dust from his feet.