[Winman]

POTW

I agree with you to a point, but I am still studying this subject. Luke 22 provides some information.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

This passage sounds very similar to when Satan went before God and requested that he could test Job. But notice Jesus said he had already prayed that Simon Peter's faith fail not. So this is very specific.

And I looked up the word converted. This does not mean to be saved necessarily. And it is clear that Peter had before this time been a believer. In this case I believe converted means "to cause to return, to bring back"

Converted:
1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
b) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
b) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back

We know that Peter did have a crisis of faith and denied the Lord. And after Jesus was crucified, that Peter abandoned the faith and returned to his former occupation as a fisherman. And it also appears the other disciples were discouraged as well, for they also went with Peter.

John 22:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

Notice how in their discouraged and faithless condition they caught nothing. Then Jesus came to them (this was after the resurrection).

4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Notice that they heard God's Word, believed it and obeyed.

7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

Notice that their faith was restored and greatly encouraged.

8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Notice how the Lord tested Peter.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Here again we have God's Word.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

This is fascinating. Peter clearly understood that the Lord was going to guide him, and that difficult times were ahead. So he looks at John and asks "Lord, and what shall this man do". Peter was saying, Hey, am I the only one that is going to have to endure this trial, what about John?

But from this point on Peter was full of faith and served the Lord boldly. So we see that Jesus prays for us and strenghtens us when our faith is weak.

This is how Jesus strenghtens our faith, he interceeds for us with prayer. And our faith cannot fail, because Jesus prays to our Father to KEEP US.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Notice that Jesus prays for believers only, not unbelievers.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

So then, it is through hearing and believeing God's Word that we get faith. Want more faith? Read and hear God's Word and believe it.

And this really explains all these Bible correcters doesn't it? They do not hear and believe God's Word, so they have no faith in the Bible.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Winman

POTW

I agree with you to a point, but I am still studying this subject. Luke 22 provides some information.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

This passage sounds very similar to when Satan went before God and requested that he could test Job. But notice Jesus said he had already prayed that Simon Peter's faith fail not. So this is very specific.

And I looked up the word converted. This does not mean to be saved necessarily. And it is clear that Peter had before this time been a believer. In this case I believe converted means "to cause to return, to bring back"

Converted:
1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
b) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
b) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back

We know that Peter did have a crisis of faith and denied the Lord. And after Jesus was crucified, that Peter abandoned the faith and returned to his former occupation as a fisherman. And it also appears the other disciples were discouraged as well, for they also went with Peter.

John 22:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

Notice how in their discouraged and faithless condition they caught nothing. Then Jesus came to them (this was after the resurrection).

4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Notice that they heard God's Word, believed it and obeyed.

7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

Notice that their faith was restored and greatly encouraged.

8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Notice how the Lord tested Peter.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Here again we have God's Word.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

This is fascinating. Peter clearly understood that the Lord was going to guide him, and that difficult times were ahead. So he looks at John and asks "Lord, and what shall this man do". Peter was saying, Hey, am I the only one that is going to have to endure this trial, what about John?

But from this point on Peter was full of faith and served the Lord boldly. So we see that Jesus prays for us and strenghtens us when our faith is weak.

This is how Jesus strenghtens our faith, he interceeds for us with prayer. And our faith cannot fail, because Jesus prays to our Father to KEEP US.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Notice that Jesus prays for believers only, not unbelievers.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

So then, it is through hearing and believeing God's Word that we get faith. Want more faith? Read and hear God's Word and believe it.

And this really explains all these Bible correcters doesn't it? They do not hear and believe God's Word, so they have no faith in the Bible.

Brother Win, I think the Scriptures themselves gives the best definition of the word "converted"; particularly Matt. 18:3 pretty well nails it down:

Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Mt 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

[Winman]

Bro Tony

I agree with you about letting the Bible define itself, however, Luke 22:32 is very different from all the other verses with the word "converted" in it. It is very easy to see that all the other verses concern unsaved sinners who need to be converted and trust in Christ for salvation. But Peter was not lost. He had confessed his belief in Jesus earlier.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

And Jesus himself confirmed that Peter had faith, and prayed that his faith not fail.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

So in this verse, converted cannot mean an unsaved sinner turning to God for salvation. Peter was already saved when the Lord said he had prayed that Peter's fail fail not.

[peopleoftheway]

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Whats a wonderful example of Christs never ending intercession for us, when we pray he is our advocate
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Now when Jesus said to Peter that Satan has "desired to have you", he dosent say Peter YOU go and pray, neither does he say to be watchful and alert, he says "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not."
Now that's a prayer we can take as "faithful"

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Winman

Bro Tony

I agree with you about letting the Bible define itself, however, Luke 22:32 is very different from all the other verses with the word "converted" in it. It is very easy to see that all the other verses concern unsaved sinners who need to be converted and trust in Christ for salvation. But Peter was not lost. He had confessed his belief in Jesus earlier.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

And Jesus himself confirmed that Peter had faith, and prayed that his faith not fail.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

So in this verse, converted cannot mean an unsaved sinner turning to God for salvation. Peter was already saved when the Lord said he had prayed that Peter's fail fail not.

Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mr 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Brother Win, I am not being contentious with you, but as we are looking back on the events we can feel this way and that way without actually being there in the moment, yet since OT salvation and NT salvation were different, I believe the Lord meant just what He said. There was no New Birth in the OT regardless of what John R. Rice may have taught, and God giving His Spirit to even a saint of David's stature could also be withdrawn, and I don't believe Peter nor any of the apostles had any more of the positive assurance of salvation than David did because Christ had not died and resurrected yet. I agree with POTW that it is a beautiful figure, similitude, of Christ as mediator, but at this time Christ and the Twelve are preaching the gospel of the kingdom of Ex. 19 and Is. 61, not Paul's gospel of grace. When we come upon a puzzling statement or incident like this, we need to not look at it through the glasses of 2009, we need to do like the old TIME TUNNEL TV show from the 60s, we need to go back to that time, look around, and say to ourselves, what has happened here, what is happening, and what is yet to happen, what's going on here?

Win, I'm not picking a fight with you on this, I just believe that when the Lord indicated Peter was in an unconverted condition, He mean just that, Peter, when thou art converted, He meant just what He said, that conversion for Peter was yet in the future, and that Psalms 51 gives us the definition of the word.

Grace and peace to you brother.

Tony

[Winman]

Bro Tony

Perhaps you are correct. I do know that in the OT the Holy Spirit could come upon a man and leave again as in the case of Saul.

Only, in Peter's case in Luke 22:31 the Lord confirmed that Peter had faith, and had prayed that it fail not. And as I showed, Peter had earlier confessed that Jesus was the Christ of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And Jesus prayed for all the disciples (except Judas) in the garden.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This is before Jesus was crucified and resurrected, yet he says these disciples belonged to the Father and were given to Jesus. Then Jesus prays the Father to keep them.



John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I am all for rightly dividing the Word. But you sometimes just need to take God's Word for what it says. To me, the disciples were believers, they belonged to both the Father and Jesus, Jesus had kept them so that none was lost save Judas, and Jesus prayed that the Father would keep them. So to me anyway, they were clearly saved.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Winman

Bro Tony

Perhaps you are correct. I do know that in the OT the Holy Spirit could come upon a man and leave again as in the case of Saul.

Only, in Peter's case in Luke 22:31 the Lord confirmed that Peter had faith, and had prayed that it fail not. And as I showed, Peter had earlier confessed that Jesus was the Christ of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And Jesus prayed for all the disciples (except Judas) in the garden.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This is before Jesus was crucified and resurrected, yet he says these disciples belonged to the Father and were given to Jesus. Then Jesus prays the Father to keep them.



John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I am all for rightly dividing the Word. But you sometimes just need to take God's Word for what it says. To me, the disciples were believers, they belonged to both the Father and Jesus, Jesus had kept them so that none was lost save Judas, and Jesus prayed that the Father would keep them. So to me anyway, they were clearly saved.

Win, I agree with you that you also could be right. I could be a nag and go on and on and on, I think we both have presented our views to the best of our ability and I am satisfied with that. It's edifying to discuss the Scriptures, it's edifying to have differences, we learn that way.

Peter is an interesting person to study. A fiery boaster before the arrest of Jesus, a quivering coward after the arrest of Jesus, and then on the day of Pentecost and after, somewhat improved, shall we say. Seeing the resurrected Christ must have been awesome and a powerful boost for their faith, but none more so than with us today. We have one thing on them, Win:

We have not seen, yet we have believed.

Grace and peace to you brother.

Tony

[Winman]

Thanks for the kind reply Tony. Yes, Peter has always been one of my favorite Bible characters, as you said, he could be the most bold, and then the most cowardly disciple. But I have always gotten the impression that Peter was the real deal, there was no phoniness or pretense with Peter, what you saw was what your got.

And I do know what you are saying about dispensations, although I am not real knowledgeable on the subject. I did read Dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkins about 30 years ago but have forgotten most of what I learned. But I know the Holy Spirit was not poured out until Acts 2.