[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by kittn1

I'm confused on "paradise." The word only appears three times in the Bible; all three in the NT and in the original Greek, all three occurrences have the same meaning.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is it the same paradise, or three different ones; a generic term for three different locations?

Thinking about it as I wrote this, I'm thinking it's a generic term.

According to Webster, paradise is a place of bliss; a region of supreme felicity or delight. All three occurances of the word in scripture would mean this. It's taught that the paradise of Luke 23:43 could not be the paradise in the 3rd heaven because Jesus didn't ascend there that day, instead He went into the heart of the earth, so we conclude that Abraham's bosom is the paradise He is speaking of here.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Me

According to Webster, paradise is a place of bliss; a region of supreme felicity or delight. All three occurances of the word in scripture would mean this. It's taught that the paradise of Luke 23:43 could not be the paradise in the 3rd heaven because Jesus didn't ascend there that day, instead He went into the heart of the earth, so we conclude that Abraham's bosom is the paradise He is speaking of here.

The only way of making the paradise of Luke 23 refer to Heaven is if Christ was referring to the Father when he told the thief "to day shalt thou be with me", which could work, BUT then we are faced with another difficulty because we teach no man could go to Heaven until Christ had purified them first (Hebrews 9:22-24), so there would have to be a special exception made for that thief, which I doubt there was.

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by stephanos

I thought that I already clarified that the wages of sin is death?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

But if that were the case, then dying would be the end of sinners. However, we know that's not right, so we can't say that it's right for Christ either.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

But if that were the case, then dying would be the end of sinners. However, we know that's not right, so we can't say that it's right for Christ either.

I think there is a dichotomy here between the eternal nature of the spirit and soul, and the flesh. I can't say I understand why the Bible says that the wages of sin is death and leaves it at that, but it does. Do I believe the eternal resting place for those that remain in unbelief is a place of eternal torment, yes. Do I believe Christ spent a non eternal amount of time in this place, no I don't. Scripture isn't clear on this, at least it isn't clear without having to make stretches.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by stephanos

I think there is a dichotomy here between the eternal nature of the spirit and soul, and the flesh. I can't say I understand why the Bible says that the wages of sin is death and leaves it at that, but it does. Do I believe the eternal resting place for those that remain in unbelief is a place of eternal torment, yes. Do I believe Christ spent a non eternal amount of time in this place, no I don't. Scripture isn't clear on this, at least it isn't clear without having to make stretches.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Well, Jesus being an eternal being could have suffered an eternity in Hell for everyone that ever lived in those three days, or even less.

Try wrapping your head around that!! Wow... *gets a headache*

Thank you. I also believe that Christ suffered even hell for us from what the bible says.

[Cody1611]

If Christ suffered in Hell for sinners then why don't I ever hear preaches tell the lost that? I know you don't have to believe that to go to Heaven(even though there is people that say if you don't believe that you're going to Hell), but I mean that is a big thing.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Cody1611

If Christ suffered in Hell for sinners then why don't I ever hear preaches tell the lost that? I know you don't have to believe that to go to Heaven(even though there is people that say if you don't believe that you're going to Hell), but I mean that is a big thing.

Good question brother, but preachers do preach on it when they tell the lost that Christ died, was buried, and rose again for them the third day. They may not expound on the reason why Christ was buried, but the fact He was is still in the message of salvation.

Often preachers will expound on the suffering, death, shedding of the blood of Christ, then the resurrection with victory over death and eternal life freely given, but don't expound the burial, except for maybe explaining that Christ buried our sins. If a preacher was going to expound on the burial then he would have to explain how Christ's soul descended into hell, etc, which would probably be too much for a lost person to take in, and likely cause them to label the preacher as a cultist or something.

You're right though, it is a big thing, but I think it's a meaty truth, just like the truth that Christ became sin for us which caused the Father to forsake him on the cross...such things can't be taught to unbelievers, and even new Christians need to grow somewhat before they are ready to receive them.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

Good question brother, but preachers do preach on it when they tell the lost that Christ died, was buried, and rose again for them the third day. They may not expound on the reason why Christ was buried, but the fact He was is still in the message of salvation.

Often preachers will expound on the suffering, death, shedding of the blood of Christ, then the resurrection with victory over death and eternal life freely given, but don't expound the burial, except for maybe explaining that Christ buried our sins. If a preacher was going to expound on the burial then he would have to explain how Christ's soul descended into hell, etc, which would probably be too much for a lost person to take in, and likely cause them to label the preacher as a cultist or something.

You're right though, it is a big thing, but I think it's a meaty truth, just like the truth that Christ became sin for us which caused the Father to forsake him on the cross...such things can't be taught to unbelievers, and even new Christians need to grow somewhat before they are ready to receive them.

I don't think the theory that Christ was tormented in Hell to be meaty truth one iota. I find it to be pure conjecture.

Romans 8:3 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebrews 10:20 (KJV) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

I could go on an on in defense of my belief that Christ bore our sins on the Cross 'in the flesh'., and it was there that he made atonement for our sins. But what I can't understand is why you folks want to believe Christ had to make further atonement in Hell? Was His shed blood on the cross not enough?

*sigh* I think I've had enough of this thread.

Peace and Love,
Stephen



Peace and Love,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

Matt. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Three days and three nights is a long time for an Eternal Being to spend in close proximity to Hell without a good reason to be there.