[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

I was recently sent an email by a friend warning me of the dangers of Peter Ruckman. This one was new though. It wasn't about aliens or anything.

He said that my old pastor had discovered that Peter Ruckman denied that abortion was a sin, and that he actually advocated abortion. He gave no reference or anything, so I was very skeptical (I know Ruckman teaches that a baby becomes a living soul when it takes his first breathe, I disagree, but I don't think that promotes abortion...).

I found only one place online that even claims this (no references again) and it's that stupid petersruckman.com site, which is just page after page of accusations with no evidence of witnesses.

Is anyone familiar with this accusation?

Aloha all,

I have copied 139 pages of "comments" made by the brethren on this Forum in regards to this subject - covered in the following Threads:

Peter Ruckman Stance on Abortion > {Atlas}
More Ruckman on Abortion > {Atlas}
When Does a Person Become a Living Soul? - {Dr.Bible}
Hall of Shame - {Luke}
Breath of Life - {George}
A Question About Ruckman - {Luke}

There may be more, but I am unaware of any. I did not have a chance to respond to many of the comments made by many of the brethren, since I have been too busy (and too tired) to address their points of view (some of which are excellent, and others - well enough said ).

I am going to carefully review all 139 pages of "comments" and answer those that were sincere and appropriate, at least to my own satisfaction. I may not Post them, since this issue is such a "hot button" issue, but many of the brethren {Luke, Brandon, Brother Tim, Forrest, Vendetta Ride, Cody1611, People of the Way, Biblestudent, JMWahlen, to mention a few} who appear to be on the other side of the issue from myself have brought up some excellent points, which I will sincerely take into consideration in my search for the truth in this matter.

Thanks to you all. A sincerely held conviction is something we should not be ashamed of, nor should we be fearful to voice it just because some (or most) of the brethren may believe differently.

God bless!

[atlas]

George,


Here seems to be the problem with the Ruckman issue.

Many hate Ruckman no matter what. They will use any issue they disagree with because they hate him and will do anything they can to put down this man of God.

The other group seems to defend him no matter what he dose. They have learned many good things from Ruckman and try to defend him no matter what he says or dose.

I seem to be one of the very few in the middle on this issue. This is why I always get attacked from both sides.

Ruckman is right the vast majority of the time on most issues. The anti Ruckman folks never takes notice that Ruckman is right most of the time. The other group never disagrees with Ruckman on any issue, even if they think he is wrong they will defend him to the end and if you disagree you are attacking Ruckman or you are an apostate in their eyes.

Like the divorce issue for example. They will either put him down for all three marriages like it's all 100% his fault, or they will make him blameless for all of the divorces. Any reasonable man knows that more than likely is was not all Rucman's fault. That being said Ruckman himself must take some responsibility for his marriages breaking up. Most of the time the husband and wife are both to blame for the divorce. Both the husband's and wife's problems caused the break up. Neither group seems to acknowledge this simple fact. They either defend Ruckman or put him down. never mind common sense on the issue it's either attack Ruckman of defend Ruckman.

I tend to think both groups go a little overboard with Ruckman one way or the other. I have been banned from forums for defending Ruckman, I have also received emails from people mad at me saying I attacked Ruckman because I pointed out that I disagree with him on UFO's, The Gap and the when life begins issues. I have been rebuked, called names and attacked via email by both sides of the Ruckman love and hate groups. I have been called an apostate and been accused of being in a cult and not being saved. This is how crazy both sides are on the Ruckman issue. This is what bothers me. I can nither love or hate Ruckman to side with either group, nor will I. Dr. Carl T. Lackey taught me to get along with most factions within the IFB movement. He neither loved nor hated any of the groups. He got sidelined by some groups over the Ruckman issue and the Ruckman folks never liked him 100% because he was not a 100% Ruckmanite. That is where I fit in. I'm not a member of any of the groups, nor will I ever be I'll just read the Bible, soul win, pass out tracks and run bus routs when I get the chance and not worry about all of the little groups. That's what Preacher Lackey did and he did fine doing this. I'll let this wise man and wonderful preacher be my example with all of the IBF groups. I'll just stick to the Bible ( KJV ) and do what the Bible says, the groups can do as they wish. I was called to win sinners not to be approved by any group. I still like Bobby Roberson, Jack Halyes, Sammy Allen, Phil Kidd, Dr. Ruckman, Jimmy Robbins, Dr. Slighter, Don Green, Greg Estep, Billy Kanoey, Billy Kelly and any other good Bible believing preacher I can find. I have friends and enemies on all groups. I'm only worried about what the Lord thinks. What he thinks is what really matters. Dr. Lackey preached with them all and stayed with the Lord built a good church and lead many to the Lord. I think I'll try to do the same.

No matter what side of the issue you are on when it comes to Dr. Ruckman I find that about 95% of the people either hate him beyond reason or defend him no matter what. I find that both sides have problems with balance when it comes to Ruckman.

Myself I find Dr. Ruckman good for the most part. I also find that he is a wonderful Bible teacher. I also find him a little over the top at times and as imperfect as any man who ever lived. No matter what any of us think about Dr. Ruckman good or bad. We need to judge a tree by the fruit it bares. Many souls have been saved. Many people have learned the more about Bible thanks to Dr. Ruckman. I love the man and he has helped me on many Bible issues. That being said Dr. Ruckman is far beyond making mistakes and incorrect Bible teaching. So both sides will stay where they are either hating Dr. Ruckman or loveing his teachings a little to much. For me I'll learn what I can but always make sure I look up everything he teaches and make sure he is teaching what he is teaching with the Bible in context. I do the same thing will all preachers, Dr. Ruckman has his problems as do all men. I will always read hi books and respect him for what he is, a good man and nothing more.


Atlas

[kittn1]

Originally Posted by atlas

Myself I find Dr. Ruckman good for the most part. I also find that he is a wonderful Bible teacher. I also find him a little over the top at times and as imperfect as any man who ever lived. No matter what any of us think about Dr. Ruckman good or bad. We need to judge a tree by the fruit it bares. Many souls have been saved. Many people have learned the more about Bible thanks to Dr. Ruckman. I love the man and he has helped me on many Bible issues. That being said Dr. Ruckman is far beyond making mistakes and incorrect Bible teaching. So both sides will stay where they are either hating Dr. Ruckman or loveing his teachings a little to much. For me I'll learn what I can but always make sure I look up everything he teaches and make sure he is teaching what he is teaching with the Bible in context. I do the same thing will all preachers, Dr. Ruckman has his problems as do all men. I will always read hi books and respect him for what he is, a good man and nothing more.


Atlas

Well Atlas, I'll tell you I agree with you here.

Until I joined Cody's group in May, I'd never even heard of Ruckman. I think he's a regional phenomenon (Canada is a long way from Florida unless you fly ) because my Pastor and the dearest senior saint in my church had both heard of him; the name "rang a bell," but they've never heard him preach. Pastor is Canadian, but the Lord led him south and he graduated from Baptist Bible college in Springfield.

I've since acquired (thanks again, Lor and Bryan) a set of cd's from the revival meetings at Dr Peacock's church in the summer, and first impressions of Ruckman were that he makes some good points I'd never thought of before, and I like his direct style, but I don't agree with everything he says. Listening to Ruckman makes me laugh (he has some good one-liners!) and it makes me think, but my Bible remains my final authority, as we all know it should be.

But in the spirit of sword-sharpening, when I disagree I'm encouraged to search the Scriptures and it continues to solidify my beliefs. For where I'm at spiritually at the moment, that's a good thing.

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by kittn1

I've since acquired (thanks again, Lor and Bryan) a set of cd's from the revival meetings at Dr Peacock's church in the summer, and first impressions of Ruckman were that he makes some good points I'd never thought of before, and I like his direct style, but I don't agree with everything he says. Listening to Ruckman makes me laugh (he has some good one-liners!) and it makes me think, but my Bible remains my final authority, as we all know it should be.

But in the spirit of sword-sharpening, when I disagree I'm encouraged to search the Scriptures and it continues to solidify my beliefs. For where I'm at spiritually at the moment, that's a good thing.

Some of the things Brother Ruckman teaches make me go "Hmmm?" and then I start searching the Bible...he's good for that.

[George]

Aloha brother Atlas,

I appreciate your comments about brother Ruckman, and agree (in principle) with almost all of what you said {There was a time (1968-1974) that I might have been labeled a "Ruckmanite", although I have never followed any man "Blindly"}.

However, you made some points with which I must take issue with, and I am not taking issue with what you have said to be a contrarian or a sophist, but because I believe you are mistaken in your judgment.

#1. Your Quote:

"Like the divorce issue for example. They will either put him down for all three marriages like it's all 100% his fault, or they will make him blameless for all of the divorces. Any reasonable man knows that more than likely is was not all Ruckman's fault. That being said Ruckman himself must take some responsibility for his marriages breaking up. Most of the time the husband and wife are both to blame for the divorce. Both the husband's and wife's problems caused the break up. Neither group seems to acknowledge this simple fact. They either defend Ruckman or put him down. never mind common sense on the issue it's either attack Ruckman of defend Ruckman."

If you read brother Ruckman's two auto biographies, he does take "responsibility" for a good portion of the breakup of his first marriage (seeing he married his first wife several years before he was saved, and admits to treating her badly - during the time he was lost).

However, I will beg to "differ" with you as to WHY marriages "breakup" {having been married for 47 years and observing numerous marriage "breakups" during that time). You claimed:

"Ruckman himself must take some responsibility for his marriages breaking up. Most of the time the husband and wife are both to blame for the divorce. Both the husband's and wife's problems caused the break up."

Now I am treading lightly here, so don't get offended, but the above "thinking" is Humanistic - NOT Biblical. I can testify to you that every single marriage "breakup" that I have observed in 68 years of life is because ONE of the parties refuses to be "RECONCILED" to the other [2Corinthians 5:18-19]. To the contrary to what you said: It takes TWO people to make a marriage work and only ONE to destroy it!

This "spreading the blame around" is a psychological ploy to avoid placing the responsibility for the destruction of a marriage on the ONE person who refuses to forgive and reconcile! To the contrary, in most marriage "breakups" (that I have observed) only ONE offending party is guilty of the destruction of their marriage - NOT TWO.

Since no one is "perfect" (my wife comes as close as any woman I have ever met ), there will be "faults" and "imperfections" in both parties in any marriage (that's to be expected), so you cannot place the "blame" for the destruction of a marriage because of the "faults' & "imperfections" of the parties involved. No, the fault lies with the ONE person who refuses to RECONCILE - that's our ministry [2Corinthians 5:18-19], that's what we should be seeking to accomplish (if possible) in all of our relationships with each other (especially in a marriage).

#2. Your Quote:

"I still like Bobby Roberson, Jack Halyes, Sammy Allen, Phil Kidd, Dr. Ruckman, Jimmy Robbins, Dr. Slighter, Don Green, Greg Estep, Billy Kanoey, Billy Kelly and any other good Bible believing preacher I can find."

You have to be careful who you "endorse" as being a "good Bible believing preacher".

I'm not familiar with some of the men you have mentioned, BUT I am familiar with Greg Estep and have witnessed (first hand) the "destructive influence" he has had on Bible believing Christians on the Island of Kauai, and the divisions he and his teaching on his so-called perverse "Doctrine Of Submission" has caused among Christian brethren, friends, and family.

In the 1980's Greg Estep, and his perverted teaching of: "The Doctrine of Submission", was responsible for the breakup of a Bible believing church started by three other men and myself. His unbiblical teachings divided Christian brethren, friends, and family for over 20 years now.

I had Christian friends and there are some people within my own family that were divided over the heresy that Estep taught. And that division has lasted up until this day, some 25 years later!

If you don't believe me, I would ask you to check out my essay on "The Doctrine of Submission" {50+ Pages} on my web site. http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/DOC...20Comments.htm
If you will, please check out my essay on: "Nicolaitaines & Pastoral Authority" also on the same page.

This heresy is the most destructive teaching that I have observed in 50 years of being a Christian (bar none!) and has been the cause of lost people being offended; saved brethren stumbling and backsliding; and hatred (by those Christians that embraced the heresy) toward Christian brethren, friends, and family that has existed for 25 years! Quite an accomplishment for a "doctrine" that Estep claims to be, in his own words: “The most important doctrine in the Christian life”.

Just a word of caution brother - be very careful who you recommend, some of them (unbeknownst to you) may be heretics.

[atlas]

George,

You have to be careful who you "endorse" as being a "good Bible believing preacher".

I'm not familiar with some of the men you have mentioned, BUT I am familiar with Greg Estep and have witnessed (first hand) the "destructive influence" he has had on Bible believing Christians on the Island of Kauai, and the divisions he and his teaching on his so-called perverse "Doctrine Of Submission" has caused among Christian brethren, friends, and family.

I have not heard about this issue with Greg Estep. I will say this. As far as I know and can tell Dr. Estep is a Ruckman guy and a very good Bible teacher. He used to preach at my old church and always did a wonderful job. With him coming for over twenty years he never split our church over any issue. If the church was split it must have already had a few cracks. Maybe you need to look closer to home as to why the church split. As opposed to laying blame on a man about 8,000 miles away. Maybe some of you guys were to hard headed to get along. I have no idea what the churches problem was, but there was something wrong there that's for sure.


As far as marriages go and I myself have been married for eight years and only have had one wife. I got married a little late in life. I was 29 when we got married. I have seen a few marriages break up also. The 1st one I saw was at my own home with my own Mom and Dad. I know a little about why marriages break up. Sin is the biggest reason why. The husband dose not love his wife like Christ loved the church and the wife dose not submit to the husband as unto the Lord.

Eph. 5:22 - 25

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

One of these two reasons is why the vast majority of marriages break up. One problem almost always causes the other. Both are to blame for not doing God's will long before the breakup ever even occurs. Disobeying God's will always causes problems at home and in the church.

I do find it funny that you wish to call what I believe Humanistic, but that's just fine with me. If you can stop the sins listed above that cause the break up to start with you can avoid the divorce long before it ever even comes to mind.

he and his unbiblical teachings divided Christian brethren, friends, and family for over 20 years now.

If any man will not talk to his own family over a few Bible doctrines he has some big problems and Greg Estep is not it.

Greg Estep is also a teacher at the Bible college I attend, The Bible Doctrine Institute. I have yet to find anything wrong with his teaching yet other than the gap theory. I myself find this as a small issue and not worth getting offended over. I also know a few others here that are either going to The Bible Doctrine Institute or the Charity Baptist Bible Institute, this is the Bible college Dr. Estep founded.

I will look over what you are saying about Dr. Estep from the link you gave me. Let me say that Dr. Estep is a Bible beliver and a good man of God. I am not so close minded that I will defend him no matter what like some of the Ruckman boys are with Dr. Ruckman. I have no problem endorsing his as a good preacher and teacher.



Atlas

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by atlas

If any man will not talk to his own family over a few Bible doctrines he has some big problems and Greg Estep is not it.

The problem may not be Estep's, but when Estep privately interprets Scripture and forms a heretical doctrine designed to give pastors the power to interfere in families and to hold dominion over church congregations, we certainly must point out the heresy. At the same time, the folks who embrace this "doctrine of submission" gobldygook are responsible for their own actions.

I highly encourage you to read the critique Bro. George wrote of this "doctrine" of Estep's. Estep's "doctrine" is totally unscriptural.

One church I was attending -- and trying to help build -- fell prey to this "doctrine" and the pastor unilaterally changed the Church statement of faith to read that "the pastor is the head of the local church, just as Jesus Christ is the head of the body" (or something like that -- I can't remember the exact quote now). But I sure do remember the "just as Jesus Christ" part, and I left because of it.

I would like to know what kind of "submission doctrine" Bro Estep is preaching. Some of the stuff that looks like it was on the tapes (hard to know since it is just quotes pulled from them) looks like stuff I would agree with. I would like to know more about exactly what this doctrine teaches.

[MC1171611]

I attended Charity Baptist church for a time; by then Bro. Estep had suffered a stroke and had stepped down as the pastor, but I spent some time with him, talking and discussing certain things. By then I'm sure he had mellowed down a lot, and Bro. Gresham (the man who took over as pastor) seems much less controlling than Bro. Estep is reported to have been, but from what I could tell, Bro. Greg was very kind and compassionate.

I also was in a church that, while not affiliated in any way with Bro. Estep or Dr. Ruckman, suffered a tremendous wound from an overly-controlling pastor. He even went so far as to put his foot on my little cousin's neck (as an illustration) and say that's how submitted the church members should be toward their pastor. Over 70% of the people in the church (including my family and two uncles/aunts) left within a month of each other, leaving a terrible gash in one of the most awesome churches I've been in. We were the most tightly-knit group of people, supporting almost 50 missionaries with a congregation of little more than 50-75 people altogether.

The pastor is a man just like anyone else in the church; however, when he stands up to preach, the people should respect that man's office, and the authority that God gives him to preach. He is not the head of anyone; Christ is. He's an undershepherd, not the shepherd. Yes, getting into that mess approaches Nicolaitinism, which is a thing that God hates.

On a side note: Bro. Estep and Dr. Ruckman had a falling-out many years ago; apparently it was over Daniel's 70th week, and seemed an incredibly ignorant thing to part ways over. I don't know when this happened, but by the time we came to the church, Dr. Ruckman was a sort of ignored topic; they sold his stuff and obviously agreed on 95% of doctrine, but there was a coldness there that was a little off-putting.

[atlas]

MC,

Bro. Greg was very kind and compassionate.

I never went to his church, but he came to ours for years and always preached very well and taught the Bible very well. Dr. Lackey used to preach up there and loved Dr. Estep.

I heard he ran the church like he owned the place, but you hear all kinds of things. Hearing something dose not make it true. I have saved what Bro. George wrote and will read it all later. I know he and his church did a mighty work for the Lord so he did something right. Maybe he was a little over bearing. I have no idea.

I did not know he and Ruckman split. I did know they ran together for years. That is a bad thing to split over.

I always liked Dr. Sammy Allen, Dr. Jack Wood, Dr. Estep, Dr. Don Green, Dr. Billy Kanoy and Dr. Ruckman the best of any that came to our church. Allan, Green and Kanoy never ran with Ruckman. I think it was over the marriage issue. That crap never bothered me. I liked them all as did Dr. Lackey, and I learned from all of them. Just because someone dose not like Ruckman dose not mean they are not a Godly man or a wonderful preacher. if you have never heard any of the guys preach check them out. They were all good. Dr. Lackey some how got along with them all and they all loved him. He was an unusual man in that way. He never split with any of them. Maybe we all need to be a little more like Dr. Lackey. Even Dr. Halyes and Dr. Lackey got along fine. I know many of you do not like Dr. Halyes, but he was God's man and Dr. Lackey defended him and preached with him also back in the early days and loved him till the day he died. Some of those Sword of the Lord boys were not all that bad, some of them are very bad.


Atlas