[Biblestudent]

Hello, herami!

1. "Midweek" Rapture has the same problem with "Midtrib" Rapture - both have the church into the "midst" of Daniel's 70th week. Was not the 70th week one of the major arguments why there are Pre-tribbers?

What is happening now is a change in terminology so one can claim to be Pre-trib by changing "midtrib" to "midweek". Midweek rapture is the same as "pre-wrath" rapture - the Midtribbers' term. Both use the same approach - they have the church having part in Daniel's prophecy.

The words "Tribulation Period" and "Rapture" are terms not found in Scripture but used to describe a Biblical doctrine or event. One does not have to look for the word "Rapture" to prove that there is a rapture. Why are week to look for a verse that calls the whole week a "Tribulation Period"? Is there a verse in the Bible that says the first half is NOT "tribulation"?

Daniel's 70th week is Tribulation period:
1st half - beginning of sorrows
2nd half - great tribulation

If the church will be raptured "midweek", why not "postweek"? The last half is indeed "great tribulation", but where do one get Scriptural proof that the church won't go through the great trib and be raptured before the second coming (ex. Rev. 6:18)?

Failure to distinguish between Daniel's prophecy concerning ISRAEL and Paul's mystery of the CHURCH will give way to every wind of doctrine.

[Biblestudent]

2. No, the Tribulation Period being a transition to the Kingdom Age does not work for midweek. The WHOLE seven years is transition. If one argues that only the last half is tribulation, then the last half is transition.

The problem is not whether it is a transition or not. The problem is if the church is in the transition or not.

As was said here, Daniel's seventieth week has to do with Israel, and the Rapture of the Church is pre-week. The 70th week is tribulation and the whole week serves as a transition to the Kingdom, the church being absent since the week began.

[Biblestudent]

3. Point number three is simply to show that the argument of NOT calling the first half a "tribulation" has no strength at all.

Matthew 24 tells us of a "beginning of sorrows", followed by a "great tribulation" after the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is revealed. We use the term "Tribulation period" to describe the whole of Daniel's seventieth week which appears to be detailed in Matthew 24.

THE FIRST HALF

Matt 24:3-14
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

[Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ...]

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [ISRAEL; Body of Christ not in the context]
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

In the above passage, the Lord Jesus Christ gives the sign of His coming and of the end of the world. The "sign" begins with the "beginning of sorrows".

THE MIDST OF THE WEEK

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
KJV

[Dan 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.]

THE LAST HALF

Matt 24:16-21
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

1. "Midweek" Rapture has the same problem with "Midtrib" Rapture - both have the church into the "midst" of Daniel's 70th week. Was not the 70th week one of the major arguments why there are Pre-tribbers?

What is happening now is a change in terminology so one can claim to be Pre-trib by changing "midtrib" to "midweek". Midweek rapture is the same as "pre-wrath" rapture - the Midtribbers' term. Both use the same approach - they have the church having part in Daniel's prophecy.

No, not at all the same.
Prewrath claims that God's wrath starts somewhere WITHIN the tribulation.

What you have failed to show is even ONE verse that Daniel's last week is ALL tribulation.
You don't make the other 69 weeks the tribulation. What makes you so sure that all of the last week is the tribulation.
The hard truth is that you are NOT sure, but going only on what you've always been taught about the last week.

The tribulation is referred to as "fourty and two months" and "one thousand two hundred and threescore days" throughout the book of Revelation.

the burden of proof lies on you to show that it is otherwise.

The words "Tribulation Period" and "Rapture" are terms not found in Scripture but used to describe a Biblical doctrine or event. One does not have to look for the word "Rapture" to prove that there is a rapture. Why are week to look for a verse that calls the whole week a "Tribulation Period"? Is there a verse in the Bible that says the first half is NOT "tribulation"?

for the very reasons I posted above. The tribulation is always referred to as HALF the wekk, NOt the whole week.

Daniel's 70th week is Tribulation period:
1st half - beginning of sorrows
2nd half - great tribulation

This is pure conjecture.

If the church will be raptured "midweek", why not "postweek"? The last half is indeed "great tribulation", but where do one get Scriptural proof that the church won't go through the great trib and be raptured before the second coming (ex. Rev. 6:18)?

Because that would put the church in the tribulation, and we are not appointed unto wrath.

It is incumbent upon you to prove that the Trib is anything else than what the book of Revelation and Daniel 12 describes it to be.

Failure to distinguish between Daniel's prophecy concerning ISRAEL and Paul's mystery of the CHURCH will give way to every wind of doctrine.

Absolutely true.
Here's what Paul said about that time period-

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
2 Thes 2:1-3


The Day of Christ is NOT the Day of the Lord. It is Paul's term for the gathering (rapture; see verse 1)

2. No, the Tribulation Period being a transition to the Kingdom Age does not work for midweek. The WHOLE seven years is transition. If one argues that only the last half is tribulation, then the last half is transition.

The problem is not whether it is a transition or not. The problem is if the church is in the transition or not.

As was said here, Daniel's seventieth week has to do with Israel, and the Rapture of the Church is pre-week. The 70th week is tribulation and the whole week serves as a transition to the Kingdom, the church being absent since the week began.

it certainly does.
If you are saying that the WHOLE WEEK in Daniel is tribulation, that would make thw WHOLE WEEK a transition period.
By understanding WHICH part is tribulation (the last half) we understand just how the transition might work.

In transition periods, the times are not clearly defined. Just as in Daniels 62 weeks Messiah is "cut off" and the the church is instituted. Yet the 62 weeks is just as much "determined for thy people" as the last week. Yet there's the church. The thief on the cross was a Gentile saved by grace.

[Biblestudent]

You seem to still be missing the most important point.

Getting the Church into the midst of the week breaks all defense against posttrib raptue.

I used Revelation 16:18 (sic) as an example, but it's actually Revelation 6:17. The immediate context would tell one that the "day" of God's wrath "is come" when the sun was darkened, the moon turned into blood, stars fell from heaven, and a great earthquake occurred. If the church is raptured before "wrath" during Daniel's 70th week, that would make the church go through the tribulation and raptured at the end of it just before the Second Coming.

Oh, by the way, I don't change the "Day of Christ" into the "Day of the Lord". But 2 Thessalonians 2 doesn't support midweek rapture.

As for the "beginning of sorrows," we are seeing all that NOW.
Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes...

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt. 24:32,33


The fig tree started putting forth leaves in 1948, when the Jews went back to the land.

There is no proof in that passage that the "beginning of sorrows" is the first half of the tribulation.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by herami

it certainly does.
If you are saying that the WHOLE WEEK in Daniel is tribulation, that would make thw WHOLE WEEK a transition period.
By understanding WHICH part is tribulation (the last half) we understand just how the transition might work.

In transition periods, the times are not clearly defined. Just as in Daniels 62 weeks Messiah is "cut off" and the the church is instituted. Yet the 62 weeks is just as much "determined for thy people" as the last week. Yet there's the church. The thief on the cross was a Gentile saved by grace.

No, it doesn't.

The "62 weeks" you are referring to is actually the 69th week (there were 7 weeks before the 62 weeks), and it's after the 69th week the Messiah is "cut off".

Daniel 9 says that "seventy weeks" are DETERMINED for Israel. Sounds definite to me.

What is not determined is the GAP between the 69th and the 70th.

Again, you are reading the Church into Daniel's prophecy.

[peopleoftheway]

Daniel 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah will be "cut off" 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks or 483 days )
after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem 483 years passed from this decree until the time that Christ was crucified. Leaving 7 years to fulfill Daniel 9:24 and for God to finally Judge Israel for their sins. The Beginning of sorrows / The Great Tribulation.

the first 3 1/2 years are a false peace (Beginning of sorrows) therefore suggesting it IS tribulation it just wont appear that way, the 2nd half of the week is when the covenant is broken and satan becomes incarnate and the real horror starts, "the Great Tribulation"

The tribulation was always to be the 7 years, Seven throughout the entire Bible has been used to signify completion.


addition: The beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24 speaks of famines, pestilence and Earthquakes and nation rising against nation, if that's not tribulation what is? The GREAT tribulation is the like of what this World has never seen, nor can imagine. GREAT signifies that something that was started has grown, ie 7 years

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by herami

As for the "beginning of sorrows," we are seeing all that NOW.
Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes...

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt. 24:32,33


The fig tree started putting forth leaves in 1948, when the Jews went back to the land.

There is no proof in that passage that the "beginning of sorrows" is the first half of the tribulation.

You are reading the church INTO Matthew 24. There is NO proof in the verse that the "beginning of sorrows" is now.

True, we're seeing "tribulations" now, but to say that Matthew 24 is talking about the Church is not rightly dividing the word of truth. Matthew 24 is the answer to the question in verse 3: Second Coming and End of the World.

Again, making the "coming" in Matthew 24:3 to be the Rapture of the Church is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Matthew 24 has to do with Israel before the Second Coming, not the Church before the Rapture (2 Tim. 3:1ff).