[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Far out gophgetter. If there is a false prophet in the midst, it is you. I'm not a sissy, so I'll come right out and say it.

If we deny him, he will also deny us. Deny him what? Deny us what?

Suffering and Reigning is the context.

If we do not suffer for him, he will deny us reigning with him. The only time any Christian reigns is during the millennium. 2 Timothy 2:15 - Read it and Eat it.

In Grace
Luke

Originally Posted by gophgetter

Greetings Luke,
I can see I have made an enemy without even trying. How can I be a false prophet when all I have done is ask some questions. To be a prophet means to prophesy or preach. Show me where I have been doing this.
Peace

Originally Posted by gophgetter

Like I said brother, show me where I have been doing this. I'm waiting.
Peace

Gophgetter,

Wait no longer - Here is your answer:

In your past post: (Who Was The First One To Teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"?) - You clearly insinuated that we are either "False Prophets" or "False Teachers"; and that the "doctrine" (ETERNAL Salvation) that we believe in is "heresy" and comes from or "originated" with Satan!

Gophgetter quote (2 sentences - a declarative statement & a question):

"Just like there were false prophets in the Old Covenant, Peter says there will be false teachers among us. What will be one of the messages ,or damnable heresies, of these false teachers?"

Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement - NOT a question):

"Just like there were false prophets in the Old Covenant, Peter says there will be false teachers among us. {???}

You didn't just - "ask some questions" (like you just claimed above!). I didn't see a Question Mark after your declarative statement (Did you?). Who were you referring to when you quote the Apostle Peter {"among us"}? Among WHOM - Hmmm? The "inference" is those of us on the Forum! Who else could you have been referring to? Someone in your neighborhood? Someone in your church? Someone in your Denomination? Someone out there on the NET? Someone out there "SOMEWHERE"? "among us" has to apply to SOMEONE. You were addressing those of us on this Forum - Who did you have in mind, if it wasn't some of us on this Forum?

Not only that, you stated:
Gophgetter quote:

"Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?" . . . . So with this in mind, let's look in the scriptures and see who was the first one to teach this. Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids?" . . . . "There you have it. It was none other that the serpent. He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life."

Here are some of the questions you "asked" - to which you gave us your "private opinion" and answered them:

Gophgetter quote (a question):

"What will be one of the messages ,or damnable heresies, of these false teachers?"

Gophgetter quote (a question):

"Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?" . . . . So with this in mind, let's look in the scriptures and see who was the first one to teach this. Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids? . ."

Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement):

". . . There you have it. It was none other that the serpent. He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life."

You didn't just "ask some questions" - You made some declarative statements and accusations!

You can't have it both ways (like all Sophists). Declare for us right now - Are we "False Teachers"? (Most of us teach ETERNAL Salvation). Have we embraced a "damnable heresy"? (Most of us have embraced the doctrine of "ETERNAL Security"). Are we following "that old serpent - the Devil? I trow not! (If we are guilty of these things that you claim, then we are false teachers, heretics, and have been blinded by Satan.) But , on the other hand, if what we believe is true then - you ("Gophgetter") are promoting a "damnable heresy" by inferring that the doctrine of ETERNAL Salvation is NOT from the God of the Bible, but from "the god of this world"!

[chette777]

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The Bible clearly uses the words Eternal Salvation. and it is God that decalres it so.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by stephanos

I think that John had charity, since he loved people enough to tell them the truth. But you want me to think (i'm assuming here) that a lot of the folks I've encountered with this rebuke/admonish mentality are all doing so out of love, which is not true. It takes a wise man to know when to rebuke/admonish and when to use compassion to speak the truth.

You want to know why I singled out baptists, well I think perhaps I misrepresented what I meant. I attend an independant fundamentalist baptist church, and I love these people. It wasn't my intention to grossly generalize, and perhaps I did. If that is the case, then please accept my apology. I truly love the fundamentalist baptists, but the fact of the matter remains, I have been openly attacked (90% of the time by by dispensationalists) by these folks more often than not.. I think this is inapropriate behavior on their part. I've tried really hard to just let their comments pass me by (to turn the other cheek so to speak), but there are those that make this really difficult. I think I would be more open to their teachings if their (this isn't to say all) words and lifestyles were more in line with the teachings of the Lord they profess to serve.

Have not anti-dispensationalists "openly attacked" the dispensationalists 90% of the time, too?

I accept your apology and you are right about the Fundamental Baptists, and unbelievers are right about the Christians. They (Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, etc. etc.) refuse to believe the TRUTH because true believers lack "charity". My answer to all of them is why do they stay believing in a lie even if those that teach lies are just as inconsistent as real Christians. (That is, a Baptist going to jail is a big deal; but no one asks how many of the Muslims, Catholics, etc. are in jail.)

Nope. Personally, I don't think that people who will not accept the truth will be convinced even with a consistent lifestyle. Christ did back His words up with His life, but He Himself said only few find the right and narrow way.

I didn't accept dispensationalism because I looked at it as a threat to practical Christian living, not until I realized that you can be a dispensationalist and live a much better life than those who know it or didn't know it. Furthermore, my father once denounced it as a heresy when he heard of "more than one gospels", but later understood that there is more than one gospel in the Bible (ex. Rev 14 - "everlasting gospel" is never about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ), but there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR from eternity to eternity! Of course, there is ONLY ONE GOSPEL that should be preached in this AGE OF GRACE.

I didn't know you were Baptist, so now I understand why you single out the Baptists. It's okay to criticize our own selves to keep us in balance. No problem with me.

[chette777]

The reason Stephanos feels attacked is because he has been corrected for some misinterpretations of Scripture and admonished to rightly divide the scriptures in which he was in error (mind you he does have some applicable truths that were good) but he will not do as commanded in Gods word to rightly divide and he has fought against it by attacking those who do. His battle however is not with me or others but with God as he is in disobedience to that portion of scripture that tell him to rightly divide

I too did not beleive that there was more than one Gospel. but then I went through and I found in the Gospels what is taught by Christ in Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. This clearly is not the gosepl of Christ finished work for the forgiveness of sins Because it is Jesus preaching it. NO death on the cross yet nor did he even hint at going to the cross for that reason either.

Then the Gospel Paul teaches is totally different and as you pointed out the Everlasting gospel. which is a different one preached by an angel. Paul said if anyone including an angel would be accursed to preach another Gospel. but that would only apply to the current division of time the Church Age.

the first Gospel of the Kingdom is for Israel to prepare them for the Kingdom and only Jews and their believing proslytes could enter and be saved, the second Gospel of Grace which Paul taught and is for this Age only, is for all men, and the Everlating Gospel is not a gospel of Salvation at all it is simply preparing man for judgement. there is no salvation in the everlasting Gospel.

so in the NT there are three Gospels but you have to rightly divide the scriptures to know where to apply each one and know how it works for that age too.

in most Churches today they blend them all into the gospel of grace. having Adam, Moses and the OT prophets looking forward to the cross (which they were not for no one knew they would crucify the Lord of Glory) and they have everyone after Christ looking back to the cross (that may be true in a sense).

I was raised a Christian (that is after I was born again) to study the Bible inductively and as I did I began to see there were holes in some charismatic teachings, and in some Baptist teachings. I have strove to get to a balance in these by keeping the teaching centered on the Bible. Once I got into a King James Bible alot of things began to fall into place more rapidly.

I love you Stephen. and I wish to see you grow in the word and not be tossed around in weak Bible teaching of other men and women. But rather to see you study the way God wants you too and to see you grow in more grace and the doctrines as the HOLY GHOST guides you in your correct study of Gods word.

[Biblestudent]

Just finished teaching in our Bible school's night class. The students are (or came from these backgrounds) Fundamental Baptist, Southern Baptist, Baptist Brider, Calvinist, and Pentecostalist. But hey! It's not an ecumenical movement. All are united in their desire to know which Bible is the Word of Truth and how to Rightly Divide it!

We discussed "progressive revelation" of the Scripture. We learned that while the Twelve preached a "gospel" in Luke 9:6, they didn't understand and knew nothing about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Luke 18:34), which (according to Paul) is the gospel for today (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Anybody who doesn't know it had to be lost (2 Cor. 4:3).

If the gospel for today is that Christ died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3,4),
if that gospel be hidden it is hid to them that are lost (2 Cor. 4:3),
if it was hidden to the Twelve in Luke 18:33-34,
and if the Twelve were preaching a "gospel" in Luke 9:6,
then it's either the Twelve are lost or they were preaching "another gospel which is not another" (Gal. 1:6,7)

Originally Posted by Luke

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403

Greetings,

In the post "Who Was The First One To Teach Once Saved, Always Saved", I showed scriptures in the Old and New Covenant where preachers had preached peace and security when the people they were trying to assure of their place in God and were lying to the people. As a matter of fact, I showed through the scriptures that these same false prophets (I didn't say that, the Bible did) were bought by the blood of Christ and yet they were headed for damnation.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I was using scriptures such as these to show the message of false prophets. I never directed these scriptures at anybody in this group, directly or indirectly. I wish you and I could deal with the scriptures as two mature brethren but it seems that you only deal in accusations, not scripture. When you get ready to dicuss the Bible and not call each other names, let me know.

Peace

Originally Posted by George

Originally Posted by Luke

Originally Posted by gophgetter
Originally Posted by gophgetter
Gophgetter,

Wait no longer - Here is your answer:

In your past post: (Who Was The First One To Teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"?) - You clearly insinuated that we are either "False Prophets" or "False Teachers"; and that the "doctrine" (ETERNAL Salvation) that we believe in is "heresy" and comes from or "originated" with Satan!

Gophgetter quote (2 sentences - a declarative statement & a question):
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement - NOT a question):
You didn't just - "ask some questions" (like you just claimed above!). I didn't see a Question Mark after your declarative statement (Did you?). Who were you referring to when you quote the Apostle Peter {"among us"}? Among WHOM - Hmmm? The "inference" is those of us on the Forum! Who else could you have been referring to? Someone in your neighborhood? Someone in your church? Someone in your Denomination? Someone out there on the NET? Someone out there "SOMEWHERE"? "among us" has to apply to SOMEONE. You were addressing those of us on this Forum - Who did you have in mind, if it wasn't some of us on this Forum?

Not only that, you stated:
Gophgetter quote:
Here are some of the questions you "asked" - to which you gave us your "private opinion" and answered them:

Gophgetter quote (a question):
Gophgetter quote (a question):
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement):
You didn't just "ask some questions" - You made some declarative statements and accusations!

You can't have it both ways (like all Sophists). Declare for us right now - Are we "False Teachers"? (Most of us teach ETERNAL Salvation). Have we embraced a "damnable heresy"? (Most of us have embraced the doctrine of "ETERNAL Security"). Are we following "that old serpent - the Devil? I trow not! (If we are guilty of these things that you claim, then we are false teachers, heretics, and have been blinded by Satan.) But , on the other hand, if what we believe is true then - you ("Gophgetter") are promoting a "damnable heresy" by inferring that the doctrine of ETERNAL Salvation is NOT from the God of the Bible, but from "the god of this world"!

Greetings George,

I stand corrected. I did make some statements but they were in another thread, not this one. Deal with the "statements" I made in this thread, not another one. Why are you and Luke hijacking someone else's thread. Deal with the posts on this thread. If you don't like the "statements" in another thread, show some respect and post your complaints in that thread, not someone else"s.

Peace

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Just finished teaching in our Bible school's night class. The students are (or came from these backgrounds) Fundamental Baptist, Southern Baptist, Baptist Brider, Calvinist, and Pentecostalist. But hey! It's not an ecumenical movement. All are united in their desire to know which Bible is the Word of Truth and how to Rightly Divide it!

We discussed "progressive revelation" of the Scripture. We learned that while the Twelve preached a "gospel" in Luke 9:6, they didn't understand and knew nothing about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Luke 18:34), which (according to Paul) is the gospel for today (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Anybody who doesn't know it had to be lost (2 Cor. 4:3).

If the gospel for today is that Christ died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3,4),
if that gospel be hidden it is hid to them that are lost (2 Cor. 4:3),
if it was hidden to the Twelve in Luke 18:33-34,
and if the Twelve were preaching a "gospel" in Luke 9:6,
then it's either the Twelve are lost or they were preaching "another gospel which is not another" (Gal. 1:6,7)

Yeah, I don't have any issues with this, since it is clear that Jesus' ministry took different directions at different times, but my primary issue is with those that say salvation is sometimes by works rather than by grace through faith. I do believe that at times God required strict obedience to Torah to be a shadow of what was to come in Christ Jesus, however I still believe that salvation then was by faith in the knowledge that God would save His people from their sins. Disobedience prevented the blessings of God, when Israel disobeyed. Just look at Moses for example, he didn't even get to enter the promise land, yet he appeared at the transfiguration with Elijah. So, if salvation was by strict obedience to Law, then why is Moses not in hell?

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Matthew 17:1-5 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

I guess that's all I got for now.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[George]

Gophgetter,

Your quote:

Greetings George,

I stand corrected. I did make some statements but they were in another thread, not this one. Deal with the "statements" I made in this thread, not another one. Why are you and Luke hijacking someone else's thread. Deal with the posts on this thread. If you don't like the "statements" in another thread, show some respect and post your complaints in that thread, not someone else"s.

Peace

You still haven't dealt with my original premise, and that which I repeated on this thread:

I believe in Eternal Salvation - Am I a heretic?

I teach Eternal Salvation in church and elsewhere - Am I a false teacher?

I teach that the doctrine of Eternal Security is Biblical truth and originates with the God of Scripture - Am I teaching heresy?

Like you told Luke - "I'm waiting" for your reply!

[Luke]

Gophgetter, you make a fundamental mistake

No Old Testament Saint had security because no Old Testament Saint was BOUGHT BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

It was not yet shed for them.

Old Testament Saints kept the Law. If they broke the Law, they sacrificed with a repentant heart(which was part of the Law). If they did not sacrifice, they had no covering for sin, and went to hell. If they did, and died covered by a sin COVERING, they died and went to Abraham's Bosom.

Then Jesus died on the cross, descended to the lower parts of the earth, and led captivity captive, and took paradise (Abraham's Bosom) up to Heaven.

No Old Testament Saint was washed in the blood of Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ died for them.

And the Israelites wanted this (Exodus 9 - They could have plead for continued grace that was given to Abraham, but instead, they said "We will do all that you command").