[chette777]

grace 2 me

no I did not say that. anyone that can't not make the freewill choice God has a plan for them different. Babies don't go to hell they are not old enough to be accountable for thier choice and mental retards would be under the same rule. God does not tell us how he wll deal withthem. do not interpret my words with your toughts.

Beleif alone faith alone is how a person is saved today, kept today and brought into the fullness of the image of Christ.

jerry

if you think your sins send you to hell then what you are telling God is his Son was not sufficient enough to pay the price for your sins. the judgment of our sins was carried out on the cross. Christians will be judge for whatever they do in this body whether good or bad and that affects their rewards. but you can never be judge for the sins Christ died for. unbelievers will go to hell for not believing and they will pay for all their sins for eternity because they did not accept Gods judicial payment of the blood of Christ. but they got to hell because of unbelief not because of their sins of drunkeness or adultry, lying, stealing or any other that unbelief.

Originally Posted by chette777

if you think your sins send you to hell then what you are telling God is his Son was not sufficient enough to pay the price for your sins. the judgment of our sins was carried out on the cross.

Perhaps you need to go back and reread what I said. I didn't say that I - as a Christian - would go to Hell. I said our sins make us guilty of hell, deserving of hell - but those in Christ will never go there.

unbelievers will go to hell for not believing and they will pay for all their sins for eternity because they did not accept Gods judicial payment of the blood of Christ. but they got to hell because of unbelief not because of their sins of drunkeness or adultry, lying, stealing or any other that unbelief.

I just gave you some verses that quite clearly state that the lost go to Hell for their sins. Don't explain them away or contradict them - they are straight out of the Bible.

quote
[ Beleif alone faith alone is how a person is saved today, kept today and brought into the fullness of the image of Christ. ]

Did Paul's faith [ will ] save him or was it God that gave him a new heart?
HE WAS IN UNBELIEF
Your faith is a work we aren't saved by works .

ACTS 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

faith alone is not how a person gets saved today , show me scripture .
your leaving Christ totally out of the salvation .

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

they have not all obeyed the gospel[ FOR ] [EXPLAINING WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID THEY WEREN'T OBEYING ] Who hath believed our report?
When they weren't believing they weren't obeying, believing the gospel is an act of obedience , thats why our believing cannot be what justifies us , its by the obedience of one , and that one is Jesus Christ.
jim

[George]

"Did Paul's faith [ will ] save him or was it God that gave him a new heart?"

Where in the scripture has God given us (Christians) a "NEW" heart?

[atlas]

grace to me,

Your faith is a work we aren't saved by works

That is not true. God even gives us the faith to become saved. We are saved by works, just not our works. His works saved us.

Rom. 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We do not even have the faith to get saved. the faith we need to get saved comes from God not ourselves. God gives us all of the tools we need to be saved. That is why Jesus came and died and why God gave us his word.

One day we will all give account for the our works. We will be paid accordingly, however when it comes to salvation I will not be judged by my works. I will judged by His perfect works for salvation. His works will get me to heaven, my awards depend on my works. Trust me we will all be in bad shape when God judges our works and tries them by fire. Thank God that His salvation works will pas the test.

1. He gave his Son.

2. He gave us the word.

3. he gave us the ability to understand his word

4. He gave us the faith from his word.

We are saved by works, just not our works. We are saved by the finished works of Jesus Christ. Our works can not save us, his works can and will save us. We are also sealed till the day of redemption by his works. That is why I can not lose my salvation. It is not my salvation to lose. it is his salvation. We have to accept his works by the faith he gives us. It is that simple my friend. What are his works? He lived a perfect life and took my place and died for sins that I commented. It was the just for the unjust. His death covered ALL of my sins. All I can say is thank you Jesus for dieing fore me and paying a debt I could not pay. My sin debt has been paid in full, and paid by Jesus and his works on the cross. That is why I am going to heaven and the only reason why. If you go to heaven that is the only reason you'll be there also.

Atlas

atlas ;
Rom. 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?

vs. 17 is a conclusion made from vs. 14-16
when a person is born again , God gives that individual in the new birth the ability to keep his commandments and we are told in 1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
EZEK.11:19-20 says what God does in the new birth ,
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
God gives us the new heart so that we are able to keep his commandments ,
one of which is to believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
God in the new birth gives you the ability to believe , the preaching of the Word of God gives the opportunity to excercise the ability.
We cannot hear God's Words if we are not of God. JN.8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
if we don't have the ability to believe we will not see the truth of the gospel,
notice what Paul said in 2 COR. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Notice here that the gospel here is referred to as a shining light.
If an individual has no faith he doesn't see it because he's blind ,He does'nt have the ability to see, so that understanding it like that we draw this conclusion , that faith is to the Word of God as sight is to light , sight is the ability to see , but if there's no light no matter how good your vision is you will not see , every child of God thats been born again has sight , but he can't see till the light shines , so the purpose of the gospel is to provide the light so the born again child of God with sight can see.
believing is a commandment are we saved by commandment keeping ?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by grace to me

so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

By the way, the Calvinist doctrine of "irresistible grace," if true, would mean that everyone is saved, since Titus 2:11 plainly states that it has appeared to every man.

[atlas]

grace to me,

so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?

As Diligent has posted,

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has did all of the work needed to get folks saved. He gave his son, the Word and faith. The Holy Spirit deal with the hearts of man.

Do not forget this.

2 Pet. 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants to save everyone.

Atlas

Diligent ;
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

the all in this verse doesn't mean all without exception it explains it later in the verse , as many as the Lord shall call , Gods word uses the word all in other places to not mean all inclusive ,

1COR.9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

All in this verse obviously doesn't mean all things without exception or you could say Paul became an idolator to the idolators or a sodomite to the sodomites etc. ,its obvious in this verse all is spoken of in a limited sense .

2 COR.13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all . Amen.

Paul is addressing the Corinthian Church here , the all spoke of here is the all he was addressing not the whole world without exception.

EPH.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The all things in this verse is obviously not all inclusive , he doesn't work any iniquity after the counsel of his own will etc.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

to take this verse as a proof text the word all would have to be defined ,
it could be all the people Titus was pastoring , it could be all belivers, etc.

Atlas:2 Pet. 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse is written to like precious faith chapter 1 verse 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
this is another instance where the word all is not all inclusive , but a certain group.
this is written to believers the us-ward and any and all in 2 PET.3:9 refer to believers . i hope that clears it up for you.

jim

[atlas]

Jim,

We need to break it on down man. We need to stop beating around the bush and tell it like it is.

Are you saying God wants some folks to go to hell? Are you saying it is his will that some people could not even be saved if they wanted to be saved?

God has two wills.

1. Perfect will.

2. Permissive will

I think God wants everyone to be saved and go to heaven. Christ died for all. However God knows most folks will end up in hell. That is not his perfect will. My main issue with the Calvinist is they do not believe in God permissive will. I believe God will let someone go to hell in his permissive but not perfect will. If anyone goes to hell they go to hell out of God's perfect will.

I myself have been out of God's perfect will. I have not lived as well as I should have at times. I smoked for about 2 years after I was saved. That was not God's perfect will. He let me do it, but it was not his perfect will. It was God's permissive will that I smoked. I did stop smoking, God helped me stop. He did not make me stop. God lets man have lots of freedom inside of his permissive will. I often am out of God's perfect will. As is everyone else. That is why I have to ask for Gods forgiveness often. We all are the same.

Salvation is the same way. God wanted me to be saved. That was his perfect will for me to be saved. If I had not chose to be saved God would have let me go to hell. It was all on me. He gave me everything I needed to be saved but I had to accept it.


Atlas