[stephanos]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Diligent:---Bingo! { See what happens when you start a website and allow people on the boards-(like the 1717 person and fellows) to post "stuff'..? Feel free to crack the whip more often on here, as it seems to me that there are folks in internet land that should not be trusted with sharp objects or motor vehicles, let alone a keyboard and computer! }

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Stephanos and anyone else of the "pacifists-goooodd/America-baaad" mentality: The very fact that you are in the State of Washington posting your stuff is because MEN in UNIFORM with WEAPONS have KILLED enemies of this Nation and our way of life (aka-The 1st Amendment to the Constitution). At the very least you and your group should do is show some concern and help out the Military folks and their families in your area.

Christ Jesus NEVER told a Soldier to quit being a Soldier of his nation. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of The Lord God Almighty commanding the Israelites to assemble together (every able-bodied/sound-of-mind male) and to fight and kill the enemies of Israel!

Do a "good work" and this week visit a V.A. Hospital or the Base Hospital at Ft. Lewis and bring a wounded/blinded soldier/vet a care package--or volunteer to read a book (The Psalms?) and thank people that are helping to keep the moslem jihadists away from your house...

Read these links, if you don't think that a Christian can be a Soldier. Read them for some encouragement.

http://www.infantryassn.com/awards.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Maurice

PB1789

I'd like to suggest that you get to know me a bit more before you start right in with the defensive and a bit agressive responses to what I write. First of all, I never said America was bad (then again I'm not saying that they're good), nor did I claim to be a pacifist (pacifists are invovled in the political process, whereas someone that is non-resistant is not). I do believe that those in authority are servants of God and that God uses them to serve His purpose. I'm not sure how much more complicated I am able to make this. There is certainly no doubt that throughout history, those in authority have persecuted the children of God in extremely violent ways. The Mennonite have not, nor will we, forget what happened to us in the 16th century. We believe that it is not our job to tell God's servants how to do their job, and it is not their job to tell us how to be children of God.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that I've never met a "moslem jihadist" and I would be lying if I said that hope I never do. I'd love to get a chance to meet one of these people to witness to them of my Father and Lord Jesus Christ. If I have to die in order for them to realize that my faith is indeed true, then so be it. I think it's important for you to realize that I do not agree with doing violent things to those I (or others) label the enemy. I believe that the only way to fight the enemy is by fighting the enemy in the way that my Master faught them, by being the servant of all, and being willing do die for those that are against me. Does this belief make me a complete fool in the eyes of the world (and many "Christians"), yes indeed it does. Truly I am a fool for Jesus Christ.

Another thing that I'd like to note; I'd like to point out that those soldiers you speak of, whom have shed blood to 'protect me', I claim none of the blood they've spilled. Their enemies are NOT my enemies. Vengence belongs to the Lord.

I hope you can read this without getting angry PB1789, and more than anything I hope you are able to understand that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. And the way you respond to those that do disagree with you is an opportunity to show that the Spirit is living in you.

Peace and Love PB1789

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

The simplest answer to this argument is to point out that the only time the issue was directly addressed in the NT, and the opportunity to make it clear that believers were not to be soldiers, the instruction given speaks for itself.

John could have settled the argument by saying, "Leave the army." Instead, he admonished them to do their jobs honorably.

Brother Tim,

Thank you for joining in. You've brought up a very good verse. However your conclusions do not make much sense. I'm not sure how a man could remain in an army and not do violence to others. There are two brothers in the Mennonite church I visit regularly that at some point in their service told their superiors that they would no longer do violence to others because of their belief in non-resistance and non-violence as taught by Jesus. One remained to do non-combatant service (this was before he became Mennonite) and the other felt he couldn't continue to assist in a war he felt was unjust. I do not think it unhonorable to obey God before men in this case.

Originally Posted by Diligent

So you admit you have no Biblical basis for denying them fellowship?

Diligent: They are always welcome to join us in prayer and worship, but they will not be allowed to be a member of our church, which includes participating in communion and feet washing. Anabaptists have always held closed communions, and this will not change. I guess I could go into all the biblical reasons why we do this, but there are countless books on the Anabaptists and Mennonite that address this subject much more thoroughly than I could. I would be happy to recommend titles if you so desire, but I'm sure by the tone you've taken with me that you could care less why we stand where we do.

So anywho, I'm glad you all took the time to share thoughts with me. I'd also like to point out that since PB1789 critisized the fact that Diligent allows people on this board to post "stuff' and I'm assuming he means me, I will leave if this is the desire of those that are in authority here. I do not wish to cause any of my brothers to stumble because of what I say and believe.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Diligent: They are always welcome to join us in prayer and worship, but they will not be allowed to be a member of our church, which includes participating in communion and feet washing. Anabaptists have always held closed communions, and this will not change. I guess I could go into all the biblical reasons why we do this, but there are countless books on the Anabaptists and Mennonite that address this subject much more thoroughly than I could. I would be happy to recommend titles if you so desire, but I'm sure by the tone you've taken with me that you could care less why we stand where we do.

I'm simply not interested in sectarian traditions. My question to you was one of Biblical authority. You say you won't allow military men to be members of your church (praise God the Lord is not so exclusive when it comes to his church!), and I asked you for a Biblical basis for that exclusion. You have elected not to provide it.

I don't know what you mean by my tone. I'm just giving you an opportunity to support your position with Scripture. I don't think that's unreasonable or confrontational. When people set up rules, they have to justify those rules with Scripture. If they don't, it's nothing more than legalism. Paul wrote in detail about what constitutes excommunicable behavior, and as far as I know, he did not list military or police service.

[Brother Tim]

Stephanos questioned:
I'm not sure how a man could remain in an army and not do violence to others.

[Brother Tim]

(2nd try, time ran out)

Stephanos questioned:
I'm not sure how a man could remain in an army and not do violence to others.

John was a fair plain-spoken person. Do you think that he possibly knew that soldiers sometimes have to kill people? Occasionally, they may have to get very rough with those who resist. If he likely knew that and did not plainly say, "You must leave the military," is it not VERY obvious that the violence that he was speaking of was that of the viciousness that the common soldiers were known for. Do not hide behind words that you know do not mean what you are trying to make them mean to fit an unbiblical church teaching.

A question: Does your church permit police as members? The soldiers of John's day were also the police force.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

(2nd try, time ran out)


John was a fair plain-spoken person. Do you think that he possibly knew that soldiers sometimes have to kill people? Occasionally, they may have to get very rough with those who resist. If he likely knew that and did not plainly say, "You must leave the military," is it not VERY obvious that the violence that he was speaking of was that of the viciousness that the common soldiers were known for. Do not hide behind words that you know do not mean what you are trying to make them mean to fit an unbiblical church teaching.

A question: Does your church permit police as members? The soldiers of John's day were also the police force.

Greetings Brother Tim,

I understand now your reasoning here. Concerning police, no, a police officer would not be allowed to be a member of any Anabaptist church, whether Amish, Conservative Mennonite, Old Order River Brethren, Old German Baptist Brethren, or Hutterite. You will notice that we all don't wear a mustache, and it is because of this very belief in non-resistance (the mustache was, and is, a symbol of pride and authority for most worldly folk. It was at one point worn by most officers in WW1, which was when the Amish and Mennonite began shaving it off). We don't believe that we belong in positions of authority over men that aren't of the brethren. We don't believe a child of God can exercise authority over the actions of men that do not serve Jesus Christ. I understand that to you baptists this seems rediculous. I'm not sure what I can tell you to explain this. Like I've said before, there are countless books on the Anabaptists, and YES there are biblical reasons for what we do. However I don't feel the Spirit guiding me to 'get into it' here with you all. I've spoken with baptists before about this, and you all are ever so staunch in your beliefs that Christians should be encouraged to serve 'their' country by killing the enemies of the nation they live in, whether or not those 'enemies' are devout Christians (heaven forbid). Since some of you think I'm an anti-American 'pacifist' I will refrain from these sort of discussions in the future. I don't see it bearing any fruit on these forums. I'm open to anyone truly curious about us via Private Message (I think my AIM, MSN, and ICQ account info is available on this site). To be honest I came to these forums because I truly feel all alone out here in Wenatchee (the nearest Anabaptist congregation is an hour away, and I struggle to get there because of financial and work related issues) in my beliefs that the KJB is the only preserved Words of God in the English language. I really need the fellowship of like minded Christians (in this regard), and don't want to get into debates concerning the various Anabaptist doctrines.

I apologize if I've offended anyone.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[PB1789]

Good post Diligent. He has skirted (avoided ?)the Biblical examples.

[PB1789]

Stephanos:--I don't want to get-to-know anyone that said in one of his posts on these boards that he wanted to leave America...{You will not be missed.}

I don't want to be pals with someone who ignores what Scripture teaches about Soldiers/police-law-enforcement officers/War , or that does not have facial hair---which again is what Biblical men have! You are living in a free country, but not willing to "pay-the-freight". You might want to see Paladin54's thread about war and read the many links I posted.